1 Liverpool
2 Chelsea
3 Man Utd
4 Arsenal
5 Villa
6 Everton

Arsenal are in the right position......it should be Liverpool sacking Rafa.......not poor old Arsene being pilloried.

but you, like everybody else neglect to think about the quality of the team that Arsenal already had.

if they had all started from scratch then of course 4th would be in the right position. for example for West Ham to challeneg for the top 3 they would need to spend at least £100m putting them in the top 1 or 2 of the spending. does that mean they should be top or second? of course not because the team started as nothing. Arsenal had the foundation there. they had a team that reached the Champions League Final. they have since spent almost £100m and gone backwards in a big way. Liverpool and Chelsea HAD to spend big to catch up with the excellence of Man United and Arsenal's teams. Chelsea in particular are guilty of reckless spending. everybody knows that. most of their vast spending was wasted anyway which is no threat to Arsenal.

at the beginning of the season i started the spending from Arsenal were starting as league runners up having finished 5 points ahead of Man United. the end of the first season they reached the Champions League Final. dizzy heights by comparison.

the point illustrates - Arsenal have spent a mere £30m (Berbatov, basically) less than Man United and are now streets behind them despite being superior for the 2003/04 and 2004/5 seasons.

my question is why? if wenger is this managerial God why the collapse? it is clearly not down to money as i have proven. its got nothing to do with liverpool, this is to do with Arsene Wenger and the decline of Arsenal Football Club.

You have to take into account player age profile.....and who has left. Man Utd seem to have had more stability than most. We have lost Keane, RVN and Beckham, but they haven't been missed.

because they have been replaced properly and the style of football has been changed to suit the replacements

the main reason for Arsenal failing yet again this season is Arsene Wenger .....simple as that , i admire him and curse him at the same time ....when we were regularly winning titles ...the fa cup .....finishing runners up yet again .. our players did not want to leave ...we could keep them fairly easily ....Arsenal were the best or second best team in the country , players wanted to come to either Arsenal or Man Utd ....

Arsene Wenger of course lost the famous back four and gradually other legends who had made Arsenal so good during Wengers reign.....Wright , Bergkamp , Viera , Gilberto , Anelka , Henry , Pires , Ljundberg , Lehman ...none of these or few have been replaced with proven world class players ...they have been players with potential or promise ...Wenger has refused to pay ridiculous fees for british players or in fact any players ...instead opting for players he can mould into his preferred ideal player .....often this has failed or not gone quite as planned ...Reyes .....Hlebb ..etc

His failure to adequately reward his players for their success has led to bitter arguments and less than amiable exits from Arsenal by some players ...Bergkamp had several bust ups with Arsene Wenger over his contract negotiations ....Viera of course eventually left because of contractual problems and disagreements with Wenger ..as did Flamini , Pires , Henry and Lehman ..

All this affected our performances on the pitch ....while Man Utd ...Chelsea were spending millions and keeping most of their important players ...Wenger was insisting on keeping the wage structure and not paying more than a player was worth ....over the years we had a chance to buy Wayne Rooney ....Shaun Wright-Phillips , .....too many to mention really ....these players i imagine were swayed to join the other clubs by the better wages of course and also the chance to win things was starting to not be a guaranteed thing at Arsenal ..

The best way for any manager to keep players is to win trophies .....what can Arsene Wenger say if players want to leave in the summer ...how can he persuade them to stay ....Wenger can go on about his youngsters year after year .....if they dont win anything what is the point of keeping them together ..

I dont think Wenger will ever be sacked ....but his contract is up in 2010 so next season could be his last .....yet again Arsenal chairman Peter Hill-Wood has stated Arsene Wenger will have funds to buy players in the summer ...last season he said Wenger had a £40 million War Chest avalable if needed .....well it wasnt used much .

I think if we do win nothing next season Wenger should leave ....everyone has their time .

Edit.

Good post conner........I thought Arsene had agreed a new contract until 2014......he has just turned down huge offers from Real and Bayern.

Sorry I am too lazy to read all the threads, but looked briefly. It seems Arsenal is being discussed a lot of many think they are in serious trouble and in decline. I somewhat agree, but when U look at it, their problem may not be that complicated. They got mostly good young players, but are not yet mentally and physically, I just think they need to bring a few top, mentally and physically strong players, to help them. If they get a leader at the back, a DM to backup Fabregas and a top striker who is physically strong and can put pressure on the opposition, since Arsenal plays that kinda game with midfield supporting, then I think they will be a very strong side to challenge the top 3.

This is easier said than done of course, but I think its not that hard, they should open up their save and start spending after a few years of not much spending. One worry I think it Wenger has made some good and bad mistakes lately with his players choices, maybe he should stop letting some of these young shet players sucking up to him and really use the ones who are good on the pitch

another solid, honest post conner. just what ive come to expect from you.

hard to really counter your post with any argument or debate as i pretty much agree with it all.

all jokes aside it is a remarkable decline from what Arsenal once were. it seems Wenger takes the credit (rightly so) for making Arsenal the force they were but takes zero responsibility for the decline since the glory days of 2004. that is all wrong and that is my main gripe with the 'In Wenger We Trust' brigade.

as far as i know next season is Arsene Wenger`s last on his current contract ....any offers from Real and Barcelona are just rumours and speculation as far as i know ..
The Champions League is the only major trophy left for Wenger to win ....will he have enough desire to carry on and try to get that one remaining ...and do we want him to ....hmmm

Slight problem there Steely.....

Where the hell did you get those figures?

Utd in that time have signed:

Nani and Anderson £40million
Carrick £20million
Hargreaves £20million
Berbatov £30million
Evra £6million
Vidic £7million

There's more but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Now you don't have to be Carol to work out that somewhere in there is more than a £30million difference.

Thats £123m pokey...Steely says it was £132m

Arsenal

05/06
Tomas Rosicky £6,800,000
Mart Poom Signed
Theo Walcott £9,100,000
Emmanuel Adebayor £7,000,000
Vassiriki Diaby £2,000,000
Aleksandr Hleb £11,200,000
Armand Traore £250,000
Vito Mannone £350,000
Nicklas Bendtner £200,000

06/07
Eduardo £7,500,000
Nacer Barazite Signed
Lukasz Fabianski £2,000,000
Denilson £3,400,000
William Gallas Swap
Alexandre Song Billong £1,000,000
Fran Merida Perez Free
Joe O'Cearuill Free

07/08
Samir Nasri £15,800,000
Aaron Ramsey £5,000,000
Luke Freeman £200,000
Lassana Diarra £4,000,000
Bakari Sagna £6,000,000

08/09
Amaury Bischoff Undisclosed
Mikel Sylvestre £750,000
Andrei Arshavin £15,000,000

Man United

05/06
Patrice Evra £5,500,000
Nemanja Vidic £7,000,000
Ben Foster £1,000,000
Ji-Sung Park £4,000,000
Edwin Van Der Sar £2,500,000

06/07
Michael Carrick £18,600,000

07/08
Manucho Signed
Carlos Tevez Loan
Nani £13,500,000
Tomasz Kuszczak £2,500,000
Anderson £15,000,000
Owen Hargreaves £17,000,000
Raphael De Silva £2,500,000
Rodrigo Possebon Signed

08/09
Demitar Berbatov £30,750,000
Zoran Tosic £5,000,000
Adem Ljajic £5,000,000
Ritchie De Laet Undisclosed

You do the math.

if you feel there is a mistake in my figures please provide evidence to show where and how i am wrong.

and another reason why Arsene Wenger has lost his magic touch ...he does not have to worry about just Man Utd and Chelsea ....in the past Liverpool were not quite there yet ....the other teams ..they could trouble us a bit but we saw them off relatively easily in the end ...you can always get the odd shock result but over the season the quality shows .

With the massive investment in clubs by rich shieks or businessmen that is no longer the case ...clubs like Man City ....Aston Villa ....and with Liverpool also now spending big all this has left Arsene Wenger unable to cope like he has in the past ..the 4 or 5 tough matches a season has now become 10 - 15 tough matches ... its escalated to such a point that now Arsene Wenger struggles each season to hold onto his best players or has to reward some of his players for what have basically been a very poor 4-5 seasons ..

Wenger may indeed spend in the summer ..but of course who will also leave ...will our squad be strengthened or weakened as a result of summer activity ....who knows at this point

Yes of course that works out but if you look at what Man Utd have bought they have added to what they have already got. Where as Arsenal had to sell some of those players to buy others so it's more of a NET thing really. In that time we sold Helb, Vieira, Henry, Reyes, Cole, Pires, Ljundberg...etc.. and made funds available so we could purchase the others. If we hadn't of sold these we couldn't buy future players.

Utd seem to have kept the same players throughout which is why it's very different.

Anyway, it's besides the point all that really. My point as well as yours is that fact Wenger hasn't replace the talent we once had and he's tried this 'Project' of breeding talent and it clearly hasn't worked.

I've said it before and will say it again ,it's not what they have bought ,it's what they lost.
Every season since the year of the invincibles Arsenal have lost key players,not fringe players key players as in extremely important players.

MOst of which are once in a lifetime players of extraordinary talents that could never be replaced.
Vieira
Henry
Bergkampf
Pires
Lundjberg
Adams
Keone

Henry,Bergkampf and Vieira were probably the hardest players to replace in football at that time and as key as you are ever likely to get. that's a massive loss and with a loss of even just those 3 you have a massive job of rebuilding to do,in fact you are basically starting from scratch.
I think the obvious of Adams and keone has been maginfied in recent imes ,but i think Wenger has changed his strategy ,by using defenders with a more moblie and attacking approach,revolutionary ,but still a work in progress.

Now Wenegr buy's Hleb and promotes Flamini to a first team spot ,they have their best season's and are gone the following.Add to that Wenger buy's Diarra who is probably the best Defensive mid in the game currently and he's gone.If Arsenal keep those three they are a completely different team.
Now Wenger has caught a lot of flack and he has even baffled me at times ,but how much blame can you put on him for players that move on. let's not forget that Wenger didn't want to let any of these players go ,but i feel he should have played hard ball with at least Diarra and Hleb even if it meant they were unhappy,because the benefits completely outweigh
the problems.

maybe Arsenal can be blamed for their salary policy ,for not keeping such players,but the fact remains that every time Wenegr makes some ground in developing team chemistry ,it's torn apart by key player leaving.
What else has to be taken into consideration is that when you bring players into the Arsenal style of play it takes a lot longer to gell,because their style is more intricate than the regular teams.

the player may be signed because he has a certain technique and flair ,but adjusting that player to perform the same technique in the premiership is a completely different level, so it takes time. I think Wenger's policy to buy younger player and develop them as a team together is the best way ,and not usually buying players over 23 is smart ,because by the time they gell they are too old.
Arsharvin is a much needed shot in the arm for Arsenal ,because the boy maybe 27 ,but he wants to play for Wenger and is highly motivated o play for Arsenal it was his dream and he should end his career at Arsenal.That sort of mindset alone is exactly what Hleb and Flamini should have had,belief in the system.

We never spent £70m last season. Those values aren't net.

Our net spend this season i know for a fact is about a mere £5m.

When thinking about financial outlay you also have to keep in mind wages which i'm quite positive Chelsea out-pay anyone else. Last season an article i read had, i think, Chelsea far in the lead, then Man United and a little behind them Arsenal, then us quite a way behind.

Well Torres signed at the start of last season didn't he? So that would make up for 25 million of the 70 alone. Also those figures may include the money you spent on Javier Mashcerano, he started with you the previous season in Janurary but maybe for some reason they have put his transfer for last season. As wasn't he only on loan for the first 6 months? If that was the case those figures would be about right.

No, they aren't.

The figures are that of our total expenditure. They aren't "net" figures.

And that's what you have to look at because that is the true reflection of what you've actually spent.

The figures are ALL using the same basis and therefore give a FAIR comparison.