Fair play your trying. Would Blackburn of won the league without shearer? i dont think so

No, but I don't think that's the same thing as him winning them the league single handedly.

Gentlemen the argument of a player being classed as good or average is as has already being stated rather subjective and lends itself to a ceratian bias revolving around personal feelings as opposed to facts. Case in point Owen is heading towards being crowned as englands record goalscorer, a fact that shall be noted in the history books, but will he be remembered as englands best striker - i doubt it very much.

We have been attempting to argue for and against the conception that one needs to be a good footballer to be a good coach. An argument further complicated with the addition of posts suggesting that it is not necessary to be a good footballer to be able to coach, but to be a good coach you need to have been a good footballer and to be a top coach you need to have been a top footballer.

Consider this my friends. In modern football in this country the facts would suggest that the better, more high profile, successful player you were then the less successful you will be attempting to manage at the same level to which you played. Steve Bruce, Bryan Robson, Roy Keane, Kevin Keegan, Id even include Garreth Southgate. There are obvously more and thats taking into consideration that success is relative.

I would also suggest that you take a trawl through the divisions and let me know when you find a manager that hasnt played professional football. Then and only then could any sort of parrallels be formed regarding being a good player to be a good coach. I am not 100% certain but close enough to state that in our 4 professional divisions there is only 1 manager or assistant manager that hasnt played professsional football at sometime even if it was just reserve team.

So my friends the only real conclusions that can be drwan from that are that 1. It is highly unlikely (i was tempted to say impossible) that unless you have played professional then you wont get a chance to manage professionally at any level. 2. The bigger name you have or had in the game the bigger the job that you will get and keep getting regardless of success - a la Bryan Robson.

92 league clubs with 91 managers and 92 assistant managers who all played professional football. I say 91 managers because it would appear that Avram Grant did not play professional football - Maybe Israel have a fairer system.

You have to have played to be able to coach
However history shows great players rarely make great coaches but all great coaches have played at a reasonable level.I classify semi pro as reasonable

A true enough statement with regards to great coaches. However here is a more appropriate statement which rather throws up a catch 22. Unless you have played professionally you will not be given the opportunity to manage professionally therefore will never know if indeed it is possible to be good at it.

yes in the main that is true unless you know somebody.The pro,s in the game look after each other.Google call it the spiral effect -Appoint people who don,t threaten or challenge you,they do the same,eventually you all fail and everyone gets sacked.In football its the "good lad" syndrome.
Thats why David Moyes was clever in appointing Allan Irvine he appointed a better coach than he was and thats why they have consistently punched above their weight. I,m not an Everton fan by the way.
But that wasn,t the main thread - the thread was do you have to be a good footballer to coach

The obvious answer to the question is no, you don't have to be a good player to coach, although in saying that the ability to domonstrate the basic skills is a pre requisite for any coach.

The problem is, that with the availabilty of coaching courses, any fool and his dog can get a small piece of paper for several hours and call themselves a coach. the fact that they call themselves a coach doesn't mean their good at it. it is well recognised that between the ages of 6-11 most kids should have the core skills of football, yet far too often i have seen teams where players can't even pass a ball properly, can't explain how to take a throw in properly and so on.

Yet in the same breath, these very teams have players that have amazing ball skills that would benefit from proper coaching, by a coach that can not only use the same rhetoric each week, but can also analyse a players game and help the player improve all aspects of his game...

in my time, i have dealt with some good coaches and have come to see their work first hand, i have also listened to coaches at the end of a game, and wondered exactly what game they actually coach...

The best coaches are those that can recognise their own weakness's and can work with other coaches to help the children get the best coaching possible. yet far too often, i've seen guys try to bluff their way through a training session rather than admit that they don't have all the answers.

Some of the courses that are available are well worth trying, yet on the whole the best way to learn is to work with seasoned pro's and listen to their advice, i done my first two badges and thought i knew it all, until i spent two years with a pro manager and coach as an observer....after the two years i realised that i knew nothing....and that was after spending 25 years playing...

Pundit
at last somebody who understands the reality in the UK -you make some really good points.A.s I,ve been saying in previous topics the FA coaching scheme does not produce the coaches we need.Its about pieces of paper not practical coaching

Fa coaching nothing to do with scottish coaching so lets make that clear. If your gonna mention the uk then you must mention the sfa.

gman
are you saying scottish football is healthy.When have Scotland won anything.Thats a direct result of your coaching system.Take off the blinkers

Ah so because england won the world cup makes fa coaching much better? i think not.

Our coaching system and structure is far more stable than the fa. Why alot of coachs come up to scotland to do there badges.

http://www.scottishfa.co.uk/scottish_football.cfm?curpageid=455

Have a look at this site in your own time and then your fa site and tell me how you feel about both the fa coaching structure and the sfa coaching structure.

And well england havnt won anything since the fa coaching set up was up and running either. Just thought id put that childish remark in for you.

g man
They come up to Scotland cos its cheaper.It may well be better than the English FA I,m not arguing that this is not an english v Scots debate but what has it achieved.
You see g man and I really want you to concentrate here!!
the coach education system is supposed to train coaches in your country to coach the game so that scottish players become excellent and scottish teams win things and the scottish national team win things thats why we have the coaching scheme g man thats what the coaching scheme is supposed to do to produce coaches to make scottish soccer the best it can be,not so that overseas coaches can get their meaningless Uefa badges cheaper.
Now g man and i,m really challenging your intellect here,what great players are you producing that compare with Baxter,Law,Johnstone,McKay,Bremner,Dalglish or compared with the Celtic team that won the European cup with all Scottish players. I can,t comment on the national team cos you haven,t and don,t look like winning anything but I do know in the 70,s Scotland did ok in the World Cup considering the size and population.Now you rarely qualify and the team has no household names.
So g man I,m basically saying is that you haven,t got a clue[/b]

Scotland is the country that beat france in france. A small nation like us beat the world cup finalists. Not to bad. And here you have england the country that has one of the best leagues in the world yet you cant qualify for the euros. Sounds embarssing to me. Look at greece they won the euros and they did throught team spirit. Yet i bet you would say england are better. Could you name 11 players from the greece squad who won the euros?

And no its not cheaper here so please dont say a comment like that when clearly its a lie. Now i know you are a lier and i dont waste my time with liers my debate on this is over.

Ha Ha Gman. The reason im laughing is because i think you are now the umpteenth person to have fallen out with Colin. If you notice no one entertains his biased views anymore. It was only a matter of time before he put you down and you decided enough was enough. This particular area has gone quiet and its not hard to see why if you catch my drift.

G Man
You never answered my question read the post.Name me the great players you are producing at the moment and the great teams that is what i was pointing out.As a kid my favourite was Dennis Law.The imports in to the English league were mainly Scots who were tremendous players.Often an English kids favourite player was a scot.Not now.
Celtic won the Uero with a Scots Team not now.Think about it What is your coaching scheme for!!
Take no notice of Strass he,s happy to be 2nd rate and he,s even trying to encourage franchise holders to be 2nd rate.Ian will be on next.
Please G man don,t join that gang!!

Colin, you insult everyone you speak to. Be childish all you like, but consider that a man of your self stated standing should really try and behave a little more like an adult. Still whatever makes you happy. I here that there ploughing 200 million into grass roots football, maybe you should get off your soapbox, put together a business plan, go and haggle for a slice of it, put together an out of this world coaching scheme, that results in your favoured 75% english players in the premiership then come back and say i told you so. That should keep you busy for a while. Like i said before, quit moaning, go and do something constructive that can be held up to everyone to signal a national change instead of patting yourself on the back for the in roads you feel youve made on your blade of grass. We can all do that colin we can all do that.

wow strass
i made the offer you were too scared to take it up.you talk a good game but only talk it

As your new mod, I don't mind a bit of a debate - but calm it a bit. If not this section is locked.

Well millsy theres only 1 person on here that keeps putting others down with childish comments and insults to the point were its not a debate its 1 mans crusade against the FA and anyone who doesnt share the same view is shot down in flames. Its not hard to tell who is doing the shooting if you have read a few posts. That said, Colin if you have information to share then share it and stop playing holier than thou. Ill give it my full attention.

Like I said, this will be LOCKED if there is any more trouble

This forum is public - anyone can view it without registering. So keep it clean, and keep it safe.

Fair enough Millsy.but it was only handbags at 4 paces.Apologies to Strass

At least we can act like adults over it. Now back to topic!

Apologies accepted Colin!

Lets hope so.