Fact is mate he DID win that Euro Cup, no point saying what if he didnt!!!!

He has also improved out first team squad beyong recognition from the houllier days. they quality of players we have now compared to back then is immense.

The only problem is the other teams have strengthened too.

Yes there is. There's no point in saying what if Sir Alex never won 10 league titles because that's long running success over and over but in this instance it all comes down to what everyone would regard as a total fluke in one game. It's not like he's achieved elsewhere, he's done one thing and it was complete luck and had it not happened which 99% of the time it wouldn't have he'd be well out of a job and a black spot in Liverpool's history.

When you realise the sole reason he is in the job at all is because of his massive luck in one game how can that therefore mean he's the right man for the job as Liverpool manager?

Wenger has spent a fraction of what Benitez spends and transfer wise has actually made a profit in his time at Arsenal and yet he's won multiple titles and played beautiful football raising some of the best talents to ever play in the premiership (Pires, Henry, Vieira, Fabregas) where as Benitez has spent big year after year and this is his first year having to sell in order to buy. Even then he raised £30m selling mediocrity and proceeded to waste it on more of the same plus Keane who he paid double for and is approaching 30.

His two succeses Mascherano and Torres cost a lot of money and were already well established internationals whom everyone knew were great players.

The transfer market isn't everything though and were he good tactically you could forgive it but he's not. He consistantly does poorly against the big teams and is so negative against teams that Man Utd and Chelsea walk over in their sleep. You do not need to spend the earth to compete with Man Utd and Chelsea. Arsenal's first eleven cost under 50m last year and they should have won the league, and certainly played the best football.

you must be taking the p1ss.

He won 2 League Titles for Valencia, taking the titles away from the dominating Barcelona and Real Madrid. He also won the UEFA cup. How is that not success elsewhere? Do some research. That is not a small feat at a club of Valencia's size back then.

Also, Torres and Mascherano aren't his only successes in the transfer market.

What about Skrtel, Agger, Arbeloa (very cheap), Reina, Sissoko (even if you didn't rate him, we still made a good profit), Alonso, Luis Garcia, and Benayoun to an extent.

[quote="Benraul"][quote="fakeplastictrees"][quote="Xabi Alonso"][quote="fakeplastictrees"]

By elsewhere I meant elsewhere at Liverpool in other competitions. He did a good job at Valencia. Valencia are the third biggest club in Spain though, they were a rich/big club and still are the latter, they are not like Villarreal.

Skrtel - Good defender. Not brilliant but very solid

Agger - Same as above.

Arbeloa - Just because he's cheap doesn't mean you got a good deal. He's very poor going forward in system where the full backs are supposed to provide width (again what a tactical genuis) and his defending aint so hot either.

Sissoko - Don't know why he was sold. Much better than Barry. Didn't play him though which was foolish.

Alonso - Excellent player, very inconsistent. He's not used properly either.

Garcia - So inconsistent. He's a world class player maybe three times a season. One of those guys who is a lot more up for Inter Milan at home than West Brom away. Ultimately he was too hit or miss to be a good buy.

Benayoun - Mediocre player. Not a bad signing, not a great signing.

I won't bother to make a long, long list of all his bad signings but needless to say it would be significantly longer than the list you just gave me.

[quote="fakeplastictrees"][quote="Benraul"][quote="fakeplastictrees"][quote="Xabi Alonso"]

Before benitez took charge they had not won the league for 30 years! that is nothing to be sniffed at. It seems to me you are not giving Rafa enough credit for what he achieved there. The last time they finished in the top 2 before that was 1995.
I seem to recal Deportivo de La Coruña being a massive team around the late 90s and early 00s. To finish above those 3 teams and break thier dominance without a massive transfer kitty is fairly impressive. He didnt have freedom in the transfer market, and in the end that is why he left. But ironicly, seems that is what is happening here as well under the American ownership.

Anywho, at Liverpool, he has got to 2 European Cup Finals, and another semi final last season. An F.A Cup. This is still pretty impressive. The thing that has let him down is his league displays. I 100% agree with you there. I will not look to try and defend it either. He has made some shocking decisions on more than a few occasions during his reign. If he had not have won us that European Cup, who knows, he might be out, but the fact is he did. That is an amazing achievment with the team he had. Djimi Traore, Igor Biscan, Smicier are all European Cup winners because of him.
If he had the full backing of the owners this summer I think it would have been his last try. His final push at finally bringing that title home, but I think the bickering up the hierarchy has given him in a way a get out of jail free card. If we dont manage to mount a serious, and I mean serious title challenge this season, some questions have to be answered.

I think what you have written above means you are far from qualified from commenting on Liverpool.

Sissoko much better than Barry??!! What planet are you on? His touch is dire, he is one of the worst passers of the ball to play for Liverpool in a long time. He has 1 and a half very good seasons with us. But after he had an injury that halmed his sight he was never the same. He would just run around like a headless chicken. I like the player, but to say he is much better than Barry is ridiculous!!! No way near good enough for Liverpool

Arbeloa - The system you are talking about has just been employed. He was not bought with that system in mind. He is a very versatile player that has kept Ronaldo quiet and pretty much had Lionel Messi in a straightjacket on his debut. Not bad ay. I like arbeloa, but he is just like the rest of the team at the moment. Playing badly. He is a very good defender

Agger and skirtel are young. They are going to turn out to be fantastic players I have absolutely no doubt about it. I think they are both fantastic signings and when carra hangs up his boots will compliment each other wonderfully well. Jan Molby says he is the best palyer to come out of Denmark since him (a touch arrogant) and that includes the two laudrupp brothers.

Of course Rafa has made some bad buys, every manager has.

Hey Ben, according to every Juve fan, Sissoko has been absolutely stunning for them. So your comments on him may be way off!

what do u think of robbie keane what a buy

wht do u think of this buy?

Yup, Sissoko has been a bargain for Juventus. Looked great on the occasions I've seen him for them.

that is fair enough sticky. I have no doubt he is doing very well for them. Infact, i heard he was arguably one of their best players last season. I am happy for him but the fact is when he was in a Liverpool shirt he did exactly what i stated earlier. Do you not agree sticky? For FPL to say he is way better than Barry is just not true. Barry trumps him at passing, control, vision, shooting, ability. Momo has a great engine and will run for you forever. He will also put a tackle in, although on quite a few occasions that tackle will be a clumpsy one. But he was not good enough to play for Liverpool.

How can he be not good enough for Liverpool but Juventus's best player. They are at a very similar standard.

The leagues are very different though. the fact of the matter is that he was not good enough for us. I have stated above twice now why that was the case. We are better than juve anyways but that is not in dicsussion here.

I don't agree that he wasn't good enough for us. He was good enough for us. He isn't as good as Masch, so we didn't really need him, but that doesn't mean he isn't good enough to be at this club. That's just disrespectful to to him - a player who gave a lot to us, and was excellent before his injury.

but that is like saying Michael Owen is still good enough to play for us when earlier on you said you would never want him back. Is it not being disrespectful to a player who gave us a lot, and was excellent before his injuries? He is not as good as torres but better than Voronin. The fact is neither player are good enough now for us. The fact this is because of injuries is irrelavent.

When we bought Momo he did a good job. But we progressed and he got worse. Simple as that for me.

Well, just because i said i wouldn't want Owen back, it doesn't mean he isn't good enough.

He isn't as good as Torres, but he's still good enough for us. But personally, i'd prefer to give our younger players a chance, and Keane obviously, as we spent £20m on him. So i wouldn't want Owen.

Ben you are spot on a bout Sissoko.

anyone who watches Liverpool on a regular basis and especially those who actually go the game would have to agree with what you say.

Its like Danny Murphy all over again for me, Some fans seem to have a tinted view of certain players, sometimes caused by just seeing them in highlights on MOTD or by looking at their stats. Murphy like Sissoko was a terrible passer of the ball but somehow kept this aura about him keeping safe while nearly every kopite's head dropped every time they gave the ball away needlessly.

your spot on about Momo ben, one good half a season but then faded dramatically, it was put into sharp perspective with the arrival of Masch and we did very good business getting the fee we did for him and moving him on.

He is a decent player and is obviously doing much better in a less intense league.

But its obvious to anyone who saw him in a red shirt for the last year with us that he was below the required standard when compared to what was around us.

As for Owen, I still cant forgive him for walking out, I used to love him for giving me that great day in May 2001 against Arsenal but now I just have to laugh at the fact he's ended up at Newcastle just becuse he was impatient and greedy.

Show us yer medals Mike!??!?!

Totally agree with ya Xabi. Momo had a great start, but then picked up a few injuries and never got the form back. His workrate and commitment was superb, but his tackling was irratic, and his passing was shocking. His inability to find a red shirt with a simple 5 yard pass was shocking. Thats why when Masch came along, Momo became surplus to requirements. Good luck to him at Juve, he gave his all for us, but wasn't good enough.

As for Owen, I'm the same, I can't forgive him for leaving us. Whenever the rumours start up about him coming back, I have mixed feelings. He's a natural goalscorer (despite what Hoddle said!) and would be a great addition to our squad, but it's like having a missus cheat on you isn't it? Could you ever really trust him and love him like you did before? I remember back in the 98 world cup, the shoot out against the Argies, it was like watching your little brother up there you felt that nervous for him, but were so proud of him for sticking his pen home (off the post!). All those great memories of him are tarnished now for me. And I couldn't help but enjoy our victory in Istanbul that much more, knowing the fact he'd been sat on his arse on the Bernabau bench all season. And then coming back to Newcastle - it seemed he had a straight choice between us and them. Come to Anfield and have to fight for your place and prove yourself all over again, or go to the Toon and walk into their starting line up whenever your fit enough to play? It seemed to me that playing regular for them to guarentee his place for England for the World Cup was his motivation.......obviously the wrong choice!

Going back to the slating of Rafa on transfers, one thing I think he deserves a lot of credit for is the fact that he's prepared to admit he's wrong in the transfer market. If he signs someone and they're not up to it, they're out the door. Josemi, Morientes, Gonzalez, Bellamy, Kronkamp, Nunez to name but a few. This is something Houllier never did. He couldn't admit he was wrong. He'd sign players for over the top fees and high wages, then we'd be stuck with them til the end of the contract, and make little or no money back on them! Rafa's selling has normally been very profitable, so think twice before knocking the man. GH didn't get us a sniff of the Champions League, and never had to endure the disruption at boardroom level that rafa has. Give the man a chance. You can bang on all you like about Wengers youth policy, but that took a long time to bear fruit, Rafa's may in time with the amount he's invested in youth. And what have Arsneal won in the last four years...................

I don't see how you can knock his youth policy.

It may not benefit all of the young players, but it will certainly benefit the club.