I dont think Plessis and Pacheco read the forums, therfore our attempts at boosting their confidence would be very much in vain posting positive things about them on here.

The thing you have to remember is that players develop at different stages in their careers. Some later than others, look at Jamie Carragher and Luca Toni at the other end of the field. There are countless examples. Michael Owen was one of those rare cases when a player is so naturally gifted at such a young age. There are not many 17/18 year olds out there that can light up a world cup at the first chance of asking. But look at him now, further on in his career. He is burnt out. So injury prone that his main threat, his pace, is now a distant memory. He will never be the same player.

Pacheco has pace, intelligance, and fantastic touch. He is also very good at holding the ball and play up for someone with such a small stature. I am not bigging him up to be the next big thing but it is exciting to have players such as him wiating in the wings. He is no where near ready yet, and I do agree his finishing needs to improve but that will all come with games and time.

Regarding Plessis, I do not know how you could have failed to have been impressed by his senior debut away to Arsenal. He was fantastic. That is a hard role to play, and he looked like a seasoned pro. He, like Pacheco, has a lot to learn and major need for development but they are both young. I think you are being to critical.

TheRedsofRafa, Seriously mate you've totally missed my point!

you simply CANNOT JUDGE these players at that age and base your facts on their performances in reserve and friendly outings.

By the same token, just as you cannot write them off, you can very very rarely claim these players are TOP class DEFINITE successes either.

The cases of Michael Owen and Ryan Giggs changed the way we looked at kids in football. before all the hype that came intop the game back in the 90's through the premier league you wouldnt have even seen or heard of these young players until the day of their first team bow.

Michael Owen was a VERY special case, I was going to the game for years before he came through and I can tell ya no other football fans outside anfield knew about him before he made his bow away at Wimbledon. He was just a whisper on the kop, this so called whiz kid who's been scoring for fun in the reserves. Next thing you know he got his break, grabbed it with both hands and never looked back! he got all the pressure a little bit later on into his Anfield career, the likes of Pacheco is in the spotlight more these days and expectations to be the new Owen or a Gerrard can be crippling and any direct coparrison with these players is so unfair.

Nowadays TV camera's are trained on reserve games, teenagers transfer for multi million pound fee's and the whole thing is blown right out of proportion.

I'll say it again THESE KIDS ARE NOT THE FINISHED ARTICLE! yes Pacheco looks nervous in front of goal, what do you expect? he's a kid playing for Liverpool live on tele!

I could pick out numerous faults of every player under the age of 20 in the league mate but I wouldnt write one off at that age.

At the same time as I ask you not to judge these players and write them off I also ask everyone to calm the [beep!] down and stop lording these POTENTIAL before anything has even been achieved, you'll only dissapoint yourself about 95% of the time.

All you do with players a that age is to teach them the game and how to work in a set system and let them learn their own lessons, mostly by making mistakes at times. The cream will always rise to the top.

Players being good at that age is not as rare as you make it out.

For example the current Man Utd first team.

GK: Van Der Sar - Broke into the Ajax first team at 22, very young for a GK.
RB: Brown - Broke into the Man Utd squad at 18/19
LB: Evra - 19 when he made the Nice first team, 21 when he moved to Monaco.
CB: Ferdinand - Very good at a young age
CB: Vidic - Red Star Captain at 22, first team at 20
CM: Hargreaves - Bayern regular at 19
CM: Scholes - Man Utd regular at 20.
CM: Anderson - Porto regular at 19. Man Utd regular at 20.
LM: Nani - Porto at 18. Man Utd at 20.
RM: Ronaldo - Man Utd regular at 18.
ST: Rooney - Everton regular at 16.


Late bloomers exist without a doubt but the vast majority of players who turn out to be good enough to play for Liverpool are good enough at 20/21 and in many cases earlier.

xabi alonso do u think go to fenerbahce

But how many of those kids had Fernando Torres in front of them?!

Anyway, that means nothing, because everyone develops at different ages.

Are you gonna say Luca Toni is a bad player because he was a late developer?

Nani was Sporting Lisbon mate

Yeah I agree mate and while I think the Utd team is an unfair freaky example the game is becoming a younger mans game. but my overall that wasnt the point i was trying to make, I was just shocked that anyone would slate a 17 year old kid!!!

Pachecco might well be nervous up front and for that matter he might well never cut it in the prem when his chace comes round but to write him off already before he's kicked a ball in the league is a joke.

EVERY player has flaws in their game, especially when young. The clubs job is to point the player in the right direction and iron out those flaws.

At this moment in time our youth system is as healthy as its been in years, they may not all be home grown but we have an abudance of talented players between the age of 16 to 20 who are all developing nicely.

If two come through to make it as first team regulars it is a complete success.

Thats the way football youth academy's work in this country.

Na mate cant stand kebabs and Rafa is the bosphor me!

Well aside from Vidic they all came through strong European sides.



Like I said, there are players who develop late on in their careers but most do not. More and more in the modern game great players are great by 22 and at least getting first team games are 19/20.

Plus these players don't just need to be useful they need to be a class act to play for Liverpool and 9 times out of 10 if a player is going to be good enough for Liverpool he will be at least bottom end EPL standard by 19.

To be honest with ya Sticky I'd say Luca Toni's the white Emile Heskey

I like Luca Toni. Classy player.

Getting a replacement would greatly soften the blow of losing Alvaro, but do you think we will? Finnan looked set to leave as it was, but perhaps if Arbeloa wants to it will be he that makes way and Finnan kept instead? If Rafa is confident that Degen has it in him to be our first-choice right-back, he'll probably see Finnan and Carragher as suitable cover.

Personally, i'd be worried about this. Not least is Degen questionable ability-wise, but he's also had a track-record of injuries. And if he were a success, but became injured for a prolonged period of time (as 07/0, i would not be confident with Finnan (or Carra for that matter) taking over. He was poor last season from start to finish, only really one good match i can recall (Inter Milan (H)). I'd much rather take the say £5m from Arbeloa and £2m from Finnan and pool it towards another right-back. Evra and Sagna are proof you can get quality full-backs for around £6m or £7m (as i hope is Dossena...).

Just a question of what Rafa thinks about our current right-backs and of course whether there is any truth in the rumour of Arbeloa wanting to leave. Because i agree, we do need him, so here's hoping there isn't.

I too would hate it if Arbeloa left, he has proved himself to be a very good full back for us, and is very versatile so that is always a bonus. I read somewhere two days ago, i cant for the life of me remember where, but it said that arbeloa's agent had said that the stories his client is seeking a move away are untrue. Hopefully that will be the end of it and he stays. If not i would def agree with doing this....

Only difference being, Luca Toni has one of the most outstanding goal scoring records in Europe, and has averaged about 30 goals a season for the last 3 years.

Fair doo's mate, don't rate him myslelf.

Robbie Keane has reportedly completed his medical this morning amid Spurs accepting an £18m bid for him from ourselves.

Good signing but were is he going to play wide right or just dropping in behind torres?

Probably both.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11661_3877982,00.html

Wide left is my guess.

Rafa using Babel on the right pre-season suggests perhaps he and Kuyt will be fighting it out for the right.

maybe it will work out but i cant help think either on either flank he will not be as influential....but then again thats why rafa is the manger he must have seen something in keane.....

well its done. We have our man. Robbie Keane is ours. There will be no stopping us now.

WE'RE GONNA WIN THE LEAGUE, WE'RE GONNA WIN THE LEAGUE
WE'RE GONNA WIN THE LEAGUE, WE'RE GONNA WIN THE LEAGUE

A touch premature but i cant fault yr optimism