Correct Bluenose. Since knowone answered your question i thought i would.

Thank you G_Man

What an interesting debate.Great points raised here and most explained excellently.As it is 3:50am I will be short and frank.Maybe tomorrow I will be more in depth.

Can we read much into the fact that England always fail at penalty shoot-outs?The last one I remember us winning was against Spain in Euro 96.People say that penalties are an unfair way to decide matches.I don't believe this for a second.It shows us who has bottle.Who has nerves of steel and who can handle pressure.These are qualities you need in regular football as much as talent and hard work respectively.I don't think when players play for England they assume they will win.I think they care too much about how the media will rip them to shreds when they lose and this creates doubts in their minds.

This is different at club level.They have more self-belief there and can take games by the scruff of the neck.Like Gerrard has.Like Rooney has.Like most England first-teamers have for their teams.Like most Spanish players have at teams like Real Madrid and Barcelona.They are completely different players at international level and look like a bag of nerves.

Can we read much into the fact that England always fail at penalty shoot-outs?The last one I remember us winning was against Spain in Euro 96.


Game after did you not lose on penaltys?

Because they never have 11 players who can play the system we try to implement to a degree where they can dominate teams.

When it gets to the big teams we are good at stopping them playing but rarely good at playing as a team ourselves. This inevitably leads to pens and the rest writes itself.

Practice penalties

Praticing penalties helps to the degree that you can be sure of your technique and exactly where you are going to strike it. However, it does not allow for the emotions that are coursing through the veins when you are taking a kick that really matters. Pure and simple it boils down to the individual metal and resolve of the player taking the spot kick at any given time. Practicing them is a must, however, it is by no means a guarantee of increased success as there are a number of variables that can heavily influence the outcome.

To lose that much on penalities? These players play top level football infront of big crowds every week. Please no excuses for them

I for one would not make excuses for any of them. However the pressure of taking a penalty is different for different people in different circumstances. In some cases penalties were pure and simple taken poorly, in others it was creditable saves by the keeper and in some cases both. Frank Lampard showed character to step up and take Chelsea's against Liverpool given his recent bereavement as did stuart pearce after missing 1 for england in a world cup. It is undeniable that variables affect players regardless of practice. Sometimes they overcome them and sometimes they dont. Thats why penalties are referred to as a lottery with no amount of practice guaranteeing you to score.

Forget the quality of the players. It's not nearly as important as everyone thinks.
What really counts is discipline, team play and above all adaptability. Combine those three values and you can win any tournament with average players. Drop one, and you totally rely on individual skills.

How can Zenit destroy Bayern 4-0 when it's about individual qualities? I'll tell you how. Bayern showed no team play, no passion (has already been discussed) and no adaptability. They use the same formation in every important game, no matter if they face a counter team like Zenit or an offensive team like Werder Bremen, while they don't have proper players for this formation.

How did Greece win the European Championship in 2004?
Of course they played very disciplined, but what really won them the games was their formation. Otto Rehagel took over the national team and noticed that they don't have the players to play modern football so he completely changed the system and made use of a sweeper. A sweeper! He was being laughed at for using such an oldfashioned formation and they didn't sop laughing until they defeated Portugal in the opening game and eventually won the final.

Same thing for the Rangers now. The coach knows that he can't let the team play offensive because they don't have the potential. Consequently he adapts a catenaccio-like formation. The success proves him right.

This is why Germany performs so well at the tournaments. They play disciplined, they have the absolute will to win those tournaments and they (not always) have the adaptability.
One example: for the last WC, Klinsmann nominated David Odonkor for the German squad. He has never played for the national team before and he was mostly unknown, but he's one of the fastest professional football players in the world, which made him a great gain for the team, enabling totally new strategies.

I think the adaptability is the biggest problem of the English team. It's only the big names playing, even if they don't fit into the concept. What you really need is a coach who has the balls to make unpopular decisions and give other players a chance. That surely would take balls of steel with your sensational press. Discipline and team play come along with good training. And if a player breaks ranks, throw him out and give a young talent a chance.

Some very good points Ant, However nothing new as have all been touched upon allready. The media in this country has a very influential role in picking a team. They make and break reputations so i would say your most valid point is the 1 about the manager having the guts to do what he believes is right despite being under pressure to follow protocol. You are certainly right again with regards to greece. I have made the same point myself. However, would you back them to win this years tournament? because i know i wouldnt. Just as a side note after winning the last european tournament they proceeded to fail in qualifying for the world. Every country has its failings my friend.

Of course every country has its failings and it always takes luck to win a major tournament or even qualify for it. But the points I mentioned are the foundation for every team to bring the best out of their players.
Maybe the Greek team was too self-assured after the big success, I don't know but I think that the fact that they didn't qualify for the WC only proves me right. They don't have the individual class to perform well when they're not well organized.
You asked me if I think they win this years tournament. No I don't. Maybe they are as well organized as in 2004 and they have perfect strategies for every opponent, but the other teams don't sleep. Due to the lack of individual class, they always depend on the opponent's lack of organization.
So of course individual skills matter but a well organized team with average players can always defeat a horrible organized team with great players.

I'll be cheering on Germany as I normally do Ant.

Ant the end points you make also work in reverse. A well organized and drilled team can match and beat a team that posesses greater individual ability. You are really just covering the bases. The fact of the matter is that a team that is puerly well organised but has no outstanding acheivers really has to function at 100 % to achieve something. However generally speaking the team with individual match winners will function at 70% and still achieve the necessary result. To quote a common phrase - a trait of a championship winning team is one that can win or get results whilst playing badly.