Only 2 black league managers in England

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Only 2 black league managers in England

Postby Omari » Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:36 am

I am a 6th form student and I am currently doing a project called Why are there so few black managers in English league football? As currently 25% of league players are black or minority ethnic (BME) but only 2 out of the 92 league managers are BME. (Chris Powell and Chris Hughton). I am interested in what fellow football fans think about this issue. Why do you think there are so few black managers? Whether you think there is actually an issue? Whether you think there should be a solution and any opinions expressed in this thread may be used anonymously in my project. Thank You :D
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Postby specnur » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:49 pm

Personally i don;t really have a clue. If you look at the FACT of how long it took Hughton to get hired after newcastle fired him ,even when almost every person in football publicly said it was one of the most shocking firings in football, it makes you wonder.
The thing is there is a problem ,but i'm not sure how bad it is really . Are former players having invisible barriers put up in the quest to acquire the certifications? How many black people are actually applying? It looks bad in todays game ,because the league has so many black players ,but that has only accelerated over the last 4 or 5 years. So there could be a bit of misleading psychological factor taken into people negative thinking of the situation. One thing you don;t do is hire black managers because there are a lot of black players ,you hire them if they are fit for the job. I think Hughton was fit for a lot of jobs that were being offered when he was unemployed and one can only guess the reasoning for them team to bypass that man. I thought Ince was in the same position even though his short stint at Blackburn wasn't great.
Is there a race problem ? i would say maybe ,but more importantly there is a respect problem and if players don't respect you then any slip ups you have will be magnified in their eyes.
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Postby mihail » Sun Jul 31, 2011 3:39 pm

Pretty tough job my friend. For me black coaches are working mostly in there countries (in Africa ) and probably they are not so qualify for Еngland . I guess if some one wants to be seen from the black managers , he should have a lot of awards and after that to have some claims. I think that African football is not so good as European and they have to work a lot more to be manager in Europe . Or maybe we think so , but they are good.
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Postby okde » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:15 am

perhaps you are right,but another reason is that its circustums are fit for who has tradition in the football field and the black has little ways of jioning ,or the boss of the club don't know how they can really lead the team ,so ... but i think it will change step by step,more black managers will there in the field ! :) ImageImageImageImageImageImage
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Postby Steely Hill » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:06 am

there may be 25% non whites playing at present but that is not at all relevant. how many non whites were playing 20 years ago and have now retired? it is those that would be going into management and the figure is probably closer to 5%.

i genuinely don't believe anybody cares about what colour their manager is. Gullit, Tigana, Hughton and Ince have all had a crack at the top flight - not one of them was really a success. that doesn't mean black managers are crap, it just means those men are crap. the sooner people stop holding up the likes of Hughton and co as the poster child of black managers the sonner this doesn't even become an issue.

Ince's regular claims of racism doesn't exactly help matters either.

i am not sure what specnur is on about above talking about how 'long' it took for Hughton to be given a new job. he was back in work within 6 months. that is as good as anybody can hope for surely?
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Postby NickKIELCEPoland » Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:05 pm

I think it's blatent racism.

But who is to blame? The club owners!!! And they are dotted around the world, and are hardly aware of the existance of the FA, or, even the Premier League. Phone the club owners and tell them off!

Oh, by the way Steely Hill, you shouldn't have to go back 20 years. 10 years is enough, and there were LOADS LOADS AND LOADS of black players then. And even 20 years ago, there were a large number of black players. A large number!!!!!
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Postby Bren10 » Tue Aug 02, 2011 1:00 am

Totally agree with steely hill, cant say anyone cares whos doing what job as long as theyre good enough. Much ado about nothing the whole black manager thing, whipped up a bit by the press.
In the next five to ten years im sure we will see more black managers come through, the bigger problem is giving jobs to managers who havent a clue like avram grant.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:04 am

NickKIELCEPoland wrote:I think it's blatent racism.

But who is to blame? The club owners!!! And they are dotted around the world, and are hardly aware of the existance of the FA, or, even the Premier League. Phone the club owners and tell them off!

Oh, by the way Steely Hill, you shouldn't have to go back 20 years. 10 years is enough, and there were LOADS LOADS AND LOADS of black players then. And even 20 years ago, there were a large number of black players. A large number!!!!!


a large number? give me your estimated percentage both 10 and 20 years ago (obviously that are now retired)...
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Postby NickKIELCEPoland » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:23 am

Steely Hill wrote:
NickKIELCEPoland wrote:I think it's blatent racism.

But who is to blame? The club owners!!! And they are dotted around the world, and are hardly aware of the existance of the FA, or, even the Premier League. Phone the club owners and tell them off!

Oh, by the way Steely Hill, you shouldn't have to go back 20 years. 10 years is enough, and there were LOADS LOADS AND LOADS of black players then. And even 20 years ago, there were a large number of black players. A large number!!!!!


a large number? give me your estimated percentage both 10 and 20 years ago (obviously that are now retired)...


10 years ago
Well, the England squad that went to the 2002 World Cup had more black players than any Englans squad before or since. Some of the black players are retired, some are still playing, just like with the white players.

Percentage estimate: 20%

20 years ago,
(1991) there had just been a 5 year-long transformation of English football. In the 1985 FA Cup Final there was only one black player (he has half-black half-white, but you have decided to class them as black, with Hughton and Gullit). Yet in 1991, players like Michael Thomas, Ian Wright, John Barnes and Paul Ince were hardly noticed as being black).

Percentage estimate: 10%

However, whether it's racism or not, the club owners in their Arab or American mansions aren't going to let anyone tell them what to do, including the Premier League.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:32 am

NickKIELCEPoland wrote:
Steely Hill wrote:
NickKIELCEPoland wrote:I think it's blatent racism.

But who is to blame? The club owners!!! And they are dotted around the world, and are hardly aware of the existance of the FA, or, even the Premier League. Phone the club owners and tell them off!

Oh, by the way Steely Hill, you shouldn't have to go back 20 years. 10 years is enough, and there were LOADS LOADS AND LOADS of black players then. And even 20 years ago, there were a large number of black players. A large number!!!!!


a large number? give me your estimated percentage both 10 and 20 years ago (obviously that are now retired)...


10 years ago
Well, the England squad that went to the 2002 World Cup had more black players than any Englans squad before or since. Some of the black players are retired, some are still playing, just like with the white players.

Percentage estimate: 20%

20 years ago,
(1991) there had just been a 5 year-long transformation of English football. In the 1985 FA Cup Final there was only one black player (he has half-black half-white, but you have decided to class them as black, with Hughton and Gullit). Yet in 1991, players like Michael Thomas, Ian Wright, John Barnes and Paul Ince were hardly noticed as being black).

Percentage estimate: 10%

However, whether it's racism or not, the club owners in their Arab or American mansions aren't going to let anyone tell them what to do, including the Premier League.


this is my point.

so, using your figures, there were 90% of players that were white in 1991. what percentage of those actually went into management? perhaps 1% maximum

when you have such a low starting point of black players it is clear why there is such a low number of black managers. a very tiny percentage of players actually bother going into management and when the pool of black players retiring is already low the subsequent amount of black managers is even lower, which is simple common sense.

there is nothing which suggests there is a lower proportion of black players that have gone into management than white players. and that, my friend, is absolutely crucial to the discussion.
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Postby NickKIELCEPoland » Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:55 am

Steely Hill wrote:this is my point.

so, using your figures, there were 90% of players that were white in 1991. what percentage of those actually went into management? perhaps 1% maximum

when you have such a low starting point of black players it is clear why there is such a low number of black managers. a very tiny percentage of players actually bother going into management and when the pool of black players retiring is already low the subsequent amount of black managers is even lower, which is simple common sense.

there is nothing which suggests there is a lower proportion of black players that have gone into management than white players. and that, my friend, is absolutely crucial to the discussion.

The trouble is that the rest of the managers in the league (the ones who weren't playing 20 years ago), must have come from somewhere. And they too don't have as many black people among them, as one would expect.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:10 am

NickKIELCEPoland wrote:
Steely Hill wrote:this is my point.

so, using your figures, there were 90% of players that were white in 1991. what percentage of those actually went into management? perhaps 1% maximum

when you have such a low starting point of black players it is clear why there is such a low number of black managers. a very tiny percentage of players actually bother going into management and when the pool of black players retiring is already low the subsequent amount of black managers is even lower, which is simple common sense.

there is nothing which suggests there is a lower proportion of black players that have gone into management than white players. and that, my friend, is absolutely crucial to the discussion.

The trouble is that the rest of the managers in the league (the ones who weren't playing 20 years ago), must have come from somewhere. And they too don't have as many black people among them, as one would expect.


but why is there this whole thing about black people in management? why not look at the lack of Welshmen in management? or Scousers? it is just as pointless.
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Postby NickKIELCEPoland » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:26 am

Tony Pulis, Mark Hughes.
The Welsh are probably better represented in the Prem, than the Engish are, looking at population.

And your club have just given fat people a managerial role model.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:48 am

NickKIELCEPoland wrote:Tony Pulis, Mark Hughes.
The Welsh are probably better represented in the Prem, than the Engish are, looking at population.

And your club have just given fat people a managerial role model.


whatever, the demographic was largely irrelevant to the point, as you well know and i was also looking beyond the top flight.

the point i am making is about proportion. a key question is what percentage of retired black footballers are actually taking their coaching badges? and, maybe more importantly, what percentage of all those people taking their coaching badges are black?

only with those figures can we get a true reflection of the situation.
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Postby NickKIELCEPoland » Tue Aug 02, 2011 12:50 pm

You throw in coaching badges, but you know as well as I do, that if I produced the stats for coaching badges, then there'd be some other knowledge that we don't have.

You highlighted the fact that it was players from the past that were relevant, only later to say that very few of them actually went into management.

All I can say for sure, is that the number of black managers is disproportionately small considering the number of black players in recent years.

Of course, many managers are Spanish or Italian, and have earned good CVs abroad. There is no visible racism in those appointments, since Spain and Italy don't have many black people.

So, I think it is better to only look at those managers who are British, and are given their maiden job as manager.

If we look at the England squad from 1996, there was Paul Ince, Gareth Southgate, Alan Shearer, Teddy Sheringham, Gazza, Seaman, McManaman, Steve Howey, Darren Anterton.

Hmmm. Well, I'll be blowed! You could be right.

Hmmm. I don't believe it.

Yes, I think you are right. There is NOT so much racism. Gazza was given a job as manager of some shite team, but that was just for publicity, since no serious team would employ him as manager. But in general, there DOESN'T seem to be a big difference.

I'm going to eat humble pie on this one.
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Postby specnur » Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:20 pm

Steely Hill wrote:there may be 25% non whites playing at present but that is not at all relevant. how many non whites were playing 20 years ago and have now retired? it is those that would be going into management and the figure is probably closer to 5%.

i genuinely don't believe anybody cares about what colour their manager is. Gullit, Tigana, Hughton and Ince have all had a crack at the top flight - not one of them was really a success. that doesn't mean black managers are crap, it just means those men are crap. the sooner people stop holding up the likes of Hughton and co as the poster child of black managers the sonner this doesn't even become an issue.

Ince's regular claims of racism doesn't exactly help matters either.

i am not sure what specnur is on about above talking about how 'long' it took for Hughton to be given a new job. he was back in work within 6 months. that is as good as anybody can hope for surely?


That would be true ,but for the fact that there was almost uniform opinion that the Hughton sacking was absolutely unjustified.
Most managers at least had far worse from than him and had far more experience ,so the logical thing to assume is that he would be snapped up at least by a promotion targeting championship team that had hit a bit of poor form! In any other situation you would be right 6 months is not long , but not for a manager with Hughton record up until that point in time.
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Postby Big Jono » Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:20 am

What job did Hughton get overlooked for in those six months that he should have got specnur?
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Postby NickKIELCEPoland » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:04 am

Big Jono wrote:What job did Hughton get overlooked for in those six months that he should have got specnur?

Possibly the West Brom job.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... on-hodgson
But I have changed my mind. I now think there's very little, if any, racism in managerial appointments.
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Postby specnur » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:35 pm

NickKIELCEPoland wrote:
Big Jono wrote:What job did Hughton get overlooked for in those six months that he should have got specnur?

Possibly the West Brom job.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011 ... on-hodgson
But I have changed my mind. I now think there's very little, if any, racism in managerial appointments.


les ferdinand as basically just confirmed that some of us believed to some extent. Being a decent bloke in position of some degree of power, experienced, who doesn't have a chip on his shoulder and is well respected in the game by all ,his opinion should be treated as credible.

"It's just the way it is"!
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