Luis Suarez - Liverpool Legend?

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Luis Suarez - Liverpool Legend?

Postby Steely Hill » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:48 am

19 of his 22 goals this season have come against teams in the bottom half of the table. 2 of his goals came against a dreadful Spurs side in that 5-0 drubbing and the other was the 3-3 Merseyside derby goalfest.

Similarly, he has failed to score in 6 games, all against clubs in the top half of the table.

while there is no doubting the ability of the goofy little scumbag, do the above stats represent a true picture of his influence in the big games?

will he be forever be a thorn in the side of the mighty Norwich but a mere ghost to the cream of the crop?
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Postby Hams » Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:30 pm

I didn't know that he had such a poor record against the top PL sides.

I guess its one thing to be able to score a hat trick against Norwich every time you play
them but to be able to do it on a regular basis to the likes of Chelsea and Man City is a different
thing all together and how we should really rate him but i doubt if most Liverpool fans will see it that way.
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Postby Pickleman1967 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:19 pm

I think it is a bit harsh to call him a flat track bully, as although he hasn't scored against the top three clubs this season he has scored goals against Man City, Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal in a Liverpool shirt. I accept he gets the majority of his goals from the smaller clubs, but that is inevitable as they have weaker midfields and defensive lines.

I think what the stats show is that he is a player with a real hunger and desire to score every game. He doesn't go missing, he is always looking to grab a goal. A trip to a place like Stoke is always a pain for the big clubs - they can be extremely hard work. If, as a 'big' club, you lose at Stoke, Hull, Swansea etc. everybody points and laughs. Win and everybody says you should be winning those games anyway.

The truth is that a potential title winning side will not slip up at these grounds, and that is where Suarez is a valuable asset. He is a threat to the better clubs (as I've already said he has scored against them all) - Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City have to go to Anfield this season, and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a goal or two against them all.
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Postby Steely Hill » Mon Jan 13, 2014 1:50 pm

Pickleman1967 wrote:I think it is a bit harsh to call him a flat track bully, as although he hasn't scored against the top three clubs this season he has scored goals against Man City, Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal in a Liverpool shirt.


some stats on this point:

against - Played - Scored
Chelsea - 6 - 2
Arsenal - 6 - 2
Man United - 6 - 1
Man City - 5 - 1

Total - P23 S6 (if we exclude Man City for consistency with the below it then reads P18 S5)

for comparison purposes here is Sergio Aguero's record in those big games:

against - Played - Scored
Chelsea - 9 - 5
Arsenal - 5 - 2
Man United - 6 - 5
Man City - N/A obviously

P20 S12
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Postby specnur » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:34 pm

Steely Hill wrote:
Pickleman1967 wrote:I think it is a bit harsh to call him a flat track bully, as although he hasn't scored against the top three clubs this season he has scored goals against Man City, Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal in a Liverpool shirt.


some stats on this point:

against - Played - Scored
Chelsea - 6 - 2
Arsenal - 6 - 2
Man United - 6 - 1
Man City - 5 - 1

Total - P23 S6 (if we exclude Man City for consistency with the below it then reads P18 S5)

for comparison purposes here is Sergio Aguero's record in those big games:

against - Played - Scored
Chelsea - 9 - 5
Arsenal - 5 - 2
Man United - 6 - 5
Man City - N/A obviously

P20 S12


Ill tell you what! Ronaldo ata simialr time length of timein the league never ahd such stats ,and he is often linked to being the best player in the last 20 years.
The type of goals he has scored ,the variation ,his non stop energy ,the technique i would say he is the best striker on the planet right now period!
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Postby Pickleman1967 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:48 pm

I don't think it is fair comparison you make. Aguero is having a remarkable season, and is in a team crammed with stars. Man City will probably go on to break goal scoring records this season, on the way to lifting the title. Any striker will look like a dud when compared to him.

Liverpool have finished 6th, 8th and 7th in the last three seasons. They are no mugs, but that stat alone tells you they do not have the same quality in their ranks as a team like Man City. A striker needs quality service and assists to score goals - Liverpool have not always been able to provide that to Suarez. I'm absolutely convinced he would score against all comers if Man City decided to buy him (Jesus, I hope that doesn't happen).

I'm not here to defend Liverpool, and Suarez is not the most likable personality lets face it. However, he is a talented player. If Liverpool would like to swap this 'Norwich nemesis' for a real striker, may I suggest Mystery Striker 'S'.

Image

This man cost £26M and has scored more Premiership goals than I've had hot dinners*. Come on Liverpool, you know it makes sense.

* Please note, I follow a strict raw food diet.
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Postby Steely Hill » Mon Jan 13, 2014 3:49 pm

specnur wrote:The type of goals he has scored ,the variation ,his non stop energy ,the technique i would say he is the best striker on the planet right now period!


so why are his stats against the top sides considerably inferior to Sergio Aguero?

you're a strong proponent of measuring players by their performances in the big games so why the difference here?

Additionally, Aguero has also scored 6 in 11 against Barcelona and 4 in 12 against Real Madrid.

even against the 'better' teams of Dutch football the best Suarez could muster was 5 in 9 against PSV and 3 in 11 against Feyenoord.

meanwhile Aguero has 2 in 2 against PSV but hasn't played Feyenoord.
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Postby Steely Hill » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:17 pm

Pickleman1967 wrote:I don't think it is fair comparison you make. Aguero is having a remarkable season, and is in a team crammed with stars. Man City will probably go on to break goal scoring records this season, on the way to lifting the title. Any striker will look like a dud when compared to him.

Liverpool have finished 6th, 8th and 7th in the last three seasons. They are no mugs, but that stat alone tells you they do not have the same quality in their ranks as a team like Man City. A striker needs quality service and assists to score goals - Liverpool have not always been able to provide that to Suarez. I'm absolutely convinced he would score against all comers if Man City decided to buy him (Jesus, I hope that doesn't happen).



i was trying to draw a comparison with a player who has played a similar number of games against those same sides in the same era. if you reject the Aguero comparison we can look elswhere to avoid the assertion that Aguero has an easy life scoring goals against the better sides.

Against Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal Suarez's record reads: P17 - S5 (0.29 goals per game)
Fernando Torres' record against those same sides is P33 S16 (0.48 goals per game)
Gareth Bale's record against those same sides is P26 S9 (0.34 goals per game)

Against Man City, Chelsea and Man United Suarez's record reads: P17 S4 (0.23 goals per game)
Theo Walcott's record against those same sides is P35 S9 (0.25 goals per game)
Jermaine Defoe's record against those same sides is P69 S18 (0.26 goals per game)
Darren Bent's record against those same sides is P40 S15 (0.37 goals per game)
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Postby mrtz » Mon Jan 13, 2014 4:48 pm

Obviously the quality of defenders comes into play. When they double up on him, you can't expect him to continue bagging in goals for fun. It's not like he never scores against top sides either -- his role isn't simply to score, he has 9 other guys on the outfield who can get space because opposition focus is on him, and for the most part, he gets guys like Henderson, Coutinho, and Sterling to get some space. He'll at least give us a chance by winning corners.

It's a testament to the quality of the defense rather than an indictment on Suarez.

Also, when you compare the quality of players around Aguero or Messi or Ronaldo to those around Suarez, it's not difficult to see who has the upper hand.
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Postby Steely Hill » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:02 pm

mrtz wrote:Obviously the quality of defenders comes into play. When they double up on him, you can't expect him to continue bagging in goals for fun. It's not like he never scores against top sides either -- his role isn't simply to score, he has 9 other guys on the outfield who can get space because opposition focus is on him, and for the most part, he gets guys like Henderson, Coutinho, and Sterling to get some space. He'll at least give us a chance by winning corners.

It's a testament to the quality of the defense rather than an indictment on Suarez.

Also, when you compare the quality of players around Aguero or Messi or Ronaldo to those around Suarez, it's not difficult to see who has the upper hand.


i've offered some stats of some 'inferior' players playing for more relateable teams to Suarez's Liverpool for comparative purposes.

is his role different against the top sides than against the bottom feeders? he's obviously there to score goals against the bottom feeders (and very good at it he is too) so why is he being deployed as a 'decoy' against the better teams?

if it is 'testament to the quality of the defence' doesn't that just confirm he is a flat track bully? unable to stand out against the good defenders but able to run rings around the cloggers.

isn't Liverpool's win ratio considerably better without Suarez than with it? interestingly, Ajax's record in the 10/11 season was also considerably better without Suarez.

Liverpool win % with or without Suarez over past 2 seasons (up to December i think)
With: 39%
Without: 70.5%

Ajax win % with or without Suarez in 10/11 season.
With: 53.8%
Without: 71.4%
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Postby redpelt » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:49 pm

I think its just basically swings and roundabouts ,I mean if we delve into
the musty world of 'stats' or indeed the younger more malleable posters
flick through their copies of 'Shoot ,I'm pretty sure it will confirm that
Suarez since joining the reds has notched goals against all the top four.

I'm guessing he's just convalescing this season,probably just engaging in
some much needed me time ,whilst the rest of the 'Golden Boot' pretenders
are left in his wake as he continues to slot prolifically against the so called
'smaller' occupants of the Premier League.

I suspect when the rest of the top four visit Anfield ,he may rectify these
obviously alarming clefts in his curriculum vitae.....Not implying this thread
was posted in haste of course. :wink:
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Postby Pickleman1967 » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:04 pm

Steely Hill wrote:
mrtz wrote:Obviously the quality of defenders comes into play. When they double up on him, you can't expect him to continue bagging in goals for fun. It's not like he never scores against top sides either -- his role isn't simply to score, he has 9 other guys on the outfield who can get space because opposition focus is on him, and for the most part, he gets guys like Henderson, Coutinho, and Sterling to get some space. He'll at least give us a chance by winning corners.

It's a testament to the quality of the defense rather than an indictment on Suarez.

Also, when you compare the quality of players around Aguero or Messi or Ronaldo to those around Suarez, it's not difficult to see who has the upper hand.


i've offered some stats of some 'inferior' players playing for more relateable teams to Suarez's Liverpool for comparative purposes.

is his role different against the top sides than against the bottom feeders? he's obviously there to score goals against the bottom feeders (and very good at it he is too) so why is he being deployed as a 'decoy' against the better teams?

if it is 'testament to the quality of the defence' doesn't that just confirm he is a flat track bully? unable to stand out against the good defenders but able to run rings around the cloggers.

isn't Liverpool's win ratio considerably better without Suarez than with it? interestingly, Ajax's record in the 10/11 season was also considerably better without Suarez.

Liverpool win % with or without Suarez over past 2 seasons (up to December i think)
With: 39%
Without: 70.5%

Ajax win % with or without Suarez in 10/11 season.
With: 53.8%
Without: 71.4%


Well you are in a minority saying Suarez is a flat track bully Steely. I don't believe I've heard a pundit or a punter make a similar point about him before. Somebody like Berbatov at Man Utd I can understand, but this man does score against the top teams even if those goals are sparse.

Don't you agree that this player is quick and skilful enough to score against the very best opposition if he was in a team like Man City? The point I was making earlier was that Liverpool have finished outside the top five in the last three seasons. If you don't have quality behind you as a striker, your job is that much harder. To say a quality striker should score against the best even when in a mediocre team is asking for a hell of a lot.

Also, looking at his goal scoring stats for Liverpool, you can see that this is a player who has made excellent progress after the first couple of seasons. There may be more to come, or he may be at the height of his powers at the moment. Whatever, it is clear that last season and this season, the boy has 'come to the party', so lets reserve judgement on him until after Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal have been to Anfield this season. If he doesn't sink any goals against them I'll come back and eat humble pie!

Liverpool League Goals Record

2010/11 13 apps, 4 goals 2011/12 31 apps, 11 goals 2012/13 33 apps, 23 goals 2013/14 16 apps, 22 goals
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Postby specnur » Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:02 pm

Steely Hill wrote:
specnur wrote:The type of goals he has scored ,the variation ,his non stop energy ,the technique i would say he is the best striker on the planet right now period!


so why are his stats against the top sides considerably inferior to Sergio Aguero?

you're a strong proponent of measuring players by their performances in the big games so why the difference here?

Additionally, Aguero has also scored 6 in 11 against Barcelona and 4 in 12 against Real Madrid.

even against the 'better' teams of Dutch football the best Suarez could muster was 5 in 9 against PSV and 3 in 11 against Feyenoord.

meanwhile Aguero has 2 in 2 against PSV but hasn't played Feyenoord.


I put it down to a supoorting cast at man cot that is immense. When i team has a powerful and commanding player such as Yaya Toure it makes a masisve psychological difference. Most team know mentally that they don;t have a player that can bully him off the ball and he has the ability to run at you stright down the middle like a flipping 18 wheeler with no breaks! PLayer like Aguero benefit fomr that massively as well as having a couple of seasons with Nasri ,Silva, and co. MAn city are ateam that are begining to gel their quality together. When you have a massive squad of talent like that it takes time for this to happen and it is doing so now. Liverpool have the beginings of a very decent lot of attacking options that need anothers season to build fluidity and understanding

I think i have animpeccable judgement of a players talent ,and even if against soft opposition i can pretty well judge how he would do against the best with his talent. I think Suarez is a better than Aguero personally because i have seen Suarez with untold pressure on him in various situations and wthin the rules of the game there is not a defender in the world that could have done a better job and he has put in blinders.
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Postby Gazza-LFC » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:01 pm

Here we go again,West Ham fall further into obscurity and Steely digs into Liverpool again...admit that Liverpool are your favourite team and we'll move on.

As has been said Suarez has scored against City,United,Arsenal and Chelsea so the point of this thread baffles me..

Aguero as you are comparing him to has had the likes of Silva,Tevez,Toure,Navas,Nasri,Negredo,Dzeko only to name a few who all have provided the hard work and ammunition for him..

Lets compare Suarez and his team mates..

Suarez has had players such as Henderson,Sterling,Kuyt,Maxi Rodriguez,Shelvey,Jay Spearing,Gerrard,Lucas etc

Suarez is Liverpool's main player so against the top sides he will be man marked and doubled up every time which will obviously give him no space etc....with City you can't man mark Aguero as other players can win the game for them...at Liverpool we don't have the huge players that will win games like City do.

Instead of doing the obvious and comparing both individual players,compare team mates who provide etc and you'll se a huge difference..

Put Suarez in the City team right now and he'd be on 30+ goals without any doubt...for him to be on 22 goals in January in a team that is half the ability of City speaks more volumes for Suarez,so again your point is a little strange.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Jan 14, 2014 9:55 am

Pickleman1967 wrote:Well you are in a minority saying Suarez is a flat track bully Steely. I don't believe I've heard a pundit or a punter make a similar point about him before. Somebody like Berbatov at Man Utd I can understand, but this man does score against the top teams even if those goals are sparse.

Don't you agree that this player is quick and skilful enough to score against the very best opposition if he was in a team like Man City? The point I was making earlier was that Liverpool have finished outside the top five in the last three seasons. If you don't have quality behind you as a striker, your job is that much harder. To say a quality striker should score against the best even when in a mediocre team is asking for a hell of a lot.

Also, looking at his goal scoring stats for Liverpool, you can see that this is a player who has made excellent progress after the first couple of seasons. There may be more to come, or he may be at the height of his powers at the moment. Whatever, it is clear that last season and this season, the boy has 'come to the party', so lets reserve judgement on him until after Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal have been to Anfield this season. If he doesn't sink any goals against them I'll come back and eat humble pie!

Liverpool League Goals Record

2010/11 13 apps, 4 goals 2011/12 31 apps, 11 goals 2012/13 33 apps, 23 goals 2013/14 16 apps, 22 goals


pundits aren't exactly known for sticking their neck out with personal opinion. they're cowardly bandwagon jumpers seeking to appease the masses through tired cliches and catch-all viewpoints.

since you mention Berbatov let's put his record alongside Suarez's against Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal (I'll exclude Man City since he was around before Sheikh Mansour).
Suarez - P18 S5 (0.27 goals per game)
Berbatov - P45 S11 (0.24 goals per game)

so even a player you've cherry picked as specifically being a flat track bully only has a marginally inferior record than Suarez in terms of ratio.

i take your point about the supporting cast, but i've provided you with comparable stats from Fernando Torres, Gareth Bale, Jermaine Defoe, Theo Walcott and Darren Bent. all of their ratios are superior to Suarez, Bent's quite considerable. now you can't go telling me their supporting cast is considerably superior to Suarez's (torres' rate would be even better if i only included Liverpool stats i'm sure) - and two of those are not even what you'd call a centre forward (ignoring the fact Bale spent much of his early years as a defender).

there's no denying Suarez is a fine goalscorer and a brilliant player, however his record is considerably padded out by the bottom feeders. Twenty six of his goals in the top flight have come against Norwich, Sunderland and Wigan. an incredible record but hardly a ringing endorsement of his ability to turn it on in the big games.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:00 am

specnur wrote:
Steely Hill wrote:
specnur wrote:The type of goals he has scored ,the variation ,his non stop energy ,the technique i would say he is the best striker on the planet right now period!


so why are his stats against the top sides considerably inferior to Sergio Aguero?

you're a strong proponent of measuring players by their performances in the big games so why the difference here?

Additionally, Aguero has also scored 6 in 11 against Barcelona and 4 in 12 against Real Madrid.

even against the 'better' teams of Dutch football the best Suarez could muster was 5 in 9 against PSV and 3 in 11 against Feyenoord.

meanwhile Aguero has 2 in 2 against PSV but hasn't played Feyenoord.


I put it down to a supoorting cast at man cot that is immense. When i team has a powerful and commanding player such as Yaya Toure it makes a masisve psychological difference. Most team know mentally that they don;t have a player that can bully him off the ball and he has the ability to run at you stright down the middle like a flipping 18 wheeler with no breaks! PLayer like Aguero benefit fomr that massively as well as having a couple of seasons with Nasri ,Silva, and co. MAn city are ateam that are begining to gel their quality together. When you have a massive squad of talent like that it takes time for this to happen and it is doing so now. Liverpool have the beginings of a very decent lot of attacking options that need anothers season to build fluidity and understanding

I think i have animpeccable judgement of a players talent ,and even if against soft opposition i can pretty well judge how he would do against the best with his talent. I think Suarez is a better than Aguero personally because i have seen Suarez with untold pressure on him in various situations and wthin the rules of the game there is not a defender in the world that could have done a better job and he has put in blinders.


again, i refer you to the superior stats from the likes of Bent, Walcott, Defoe and Bale.
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:04 am

Gazza-LFC wrote:Here we go again,West Ham fall further into obscurity and Steely digs into Liverpool again...admit that Liverpool are your favourite team and we'll move on.

As has been said Suarez has scored against City,United,Arsenal and Chelsea so the point of this thread baffles me..

Aguero as you are comparing him to has had the likes of Silva,Tevez,Toure,Navas,Nasri,Negredo,Dzeko only to name a few who all have provided the hard work and ammunition for him..

Lets compare Suarez and his team mates..

Suarez has had players such as Henderson,Sterling,Kuyt,Maxi Rodriguez,Shelvey,Jay Spearing,Gerrard,Lucas etc

Suarez is Liverpool's main player so against the top sides he will be man marked and doubled up every time which will obviously give him no space etc....with City you can't man mark Aguero as other players can win the game for them...at Liverpool we don't have the huge players that will win games like City do.

Instead of doing the obvious and comparing both individual players,compare team mates who provide etc and you'll se a huge difference..

Put Suarez in the City team right now and he'd be on 30+ goals without any doubt...for him to be on 22 goals in January in a team that is half the ability of City speaks more volumes for Suarez,so again your point is a little strange.


Now, now Gareth, let's not get personal. i've simply posted some questions and some stats which are open for your dissection.

again you're using the supporting cast angle, which is understandable, but i've also offered the superior stats of the players mentioned above from different teams - of which you're the third person to skirt over.

i've read numerous hyperbolic statements that suggest SUarez was the 'best striker in the world' so i think it's only reasonable that we should scrutinise his performances - especially against the better defenders in the game as that is when the true greats shine.

Thierry Henry, for example, had 40 games against Man United and Chelsea, he scored 17 goals. that is 0.42 goals per game. double what SUarez has so far achieved which gives you the sort of measure of greatness we should expect if we're to talk of Suarez in those same terms. even Shearer had a ratio of 0.38 goals per game against Man United and Arsenal across his career.

Luis Suarez currently has a ratio of 0.26 goals per game against Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City - for perspective Andy Carroll has 0.23 goals per game against those same opponents.

surely even the most ardent Suarez fan must consider that he needs to have a bigger impact in the bigger games? for sure, the microscope will be on him for the remaining big games this season.
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Postby Pickleman1967 » Tue Jan 14, 2014 11:55 am

Steely Hill wrote:
Pickleman1967 wrote:

pundits aren't exactly known for sticking their neck out with personal opinion. they're cowardly bandwagon jumpers seeking to appease the masses through tired cliches and catch-all viewpoints.

since you mention Berbatov let's put his record alongside Suarez's against Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal (I'll exclude Man City since he was around before Sheikh Mansour).
Suarez - P18 S5 (0.27 goals per game)
Berbatov - P45 S11 (0.24 goals per game)

so even a player you've cherry picked as specifically being a flat track bully only has a marginally inferior record than Suarez in terms of ratio.

i take your point about the supporting cast, but i've provided you with comparable stats from Fernando Torres, Gareth Bale, Jermaine Defoe, Theo Walcott and Darren Bent. all of their ratios are superior to Suarez, Bent's quite considerable. now you can't go telling me their supporting cast is considerably superior to Suarez's (torres' rate would be even better if i only included Liverpool stats i'm sure) - and two of those are not even what you'd call a centre forward (ignoring the fact Bale spent much of his early years as a defender).

there's no denying Suarez is a fine goalscorer and a brilliant player, however his record is considerably padded out by the bottom feeders. Twenty six of his goals in the top flight have come against Norwich, Sunderland and Wigan. an incredible record but hardly a ringing endorsement of his ability to turn it on in the big games.


OK, as regards the goal ratios against the big clubs I concede that at the moment Suarez does not have impressive numbers. However, at the age of 26 this is not a man at the end of his career, I say it is way too early to condemn him as a flat track bully.

I've pointed out his goal scoring exploits have taken off in the last two seasons, his first full season with Liverpool was unimpressive in terms of goals scored. However, he is a progressive player in a good Liverpool side so he really has the very best chance (I'd say) to get goals against the big teams this season.

If he doesn't score in any of the home ties against Chelsea, Man City or Arsenal I will happily come back to this thread and admit that I was wrong. If he does score, of course, I hope you will reciprocate!
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Postby Steely Hill » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:14 pm

Pickleman1967 wrote:
Steely Hill wrote:
pundits aren't exactly known for sticking their neck out with personal opinion. they're cowardly bandwagon jumpers seeking to appease the masses through tired cliches and catch-all viewpoints.

since you mention Berbatov let's put his record alongside Suarez's against Man United, Chelsea and Arsenal (I'll exclude Man City since he was around before Sheikh Mansour).
Suarez - P18 S5 (0.27 goals per game)
Berbatov - P45 S11 (0.24 goals per game)

so even a player you've cherry picked as specifically being a flat track bully only has a marginally inferior record than Suarez in terms of ratio.

i take your point about the supporting cast, but i've provided you with comparable stats from Fernando Torres, Gareth Bale, Jermaine Defoe, Theo Walcott and Darren Bent. all of their ratios are superior to Suarez, Bent's quite considerable. now you can't go telling me their supporting cast is considerably superior to Suarez's (torres' rate would be even better if i only included Liverpool stats i'm sure) - and two of those are not even what you'd call a centre forward (ignoring the fact Bale spent much of his early years as a defender).

there's no denying Suarez is a fine goalscorer and a brilliant player, however his record is considerably padded out by the bottom feeders. Twenty six of his goals in the top flight have come against Norwich, Sunderland and Wigan. an incredible record but hardly a ringing endorsement of his ability to turn it on in the big games.


OK, as regards the goal ratios against the big clubs I concede that at the moment Suarez does not have impressive numbers. However, at the age of 26 this is not a man at the end of his career, I say it is way too early to condemn him as a flat track bully.

I've pointed out his goal scoring exploits have taken off in the last two seasons, his first full season with Liverpool was unimpressive in terms of goals scored. However, he is a progressive player in a good Liverpool side so he really has the very best chance (I'd say) to get goals against the big teams this season.

If he doesn't score in any of the home ties against Chelsea, Man City or Arsenal I will happily come back to this thread and admit that I was wrong. If he does score, of course, I hope you will reciprocate!


this thread isn't to hang the bloke out to dry, condemn him or even label him. it was produced simply as a thread to chart his progress and identify a very obvious flaw in the much trotted out argument that he is the 'best striker in the world'. it allows us to study his goalscoring prowess free from hyperbole and accusations of knee jerk reactions should he fail to score in the games you mention.

indeed, a failure to score in all of those three games will not confirm he is a flat track bully and neither will scoring in them dispel the theory. however it will lend a weight to those arguments, one way or another.

i agree that Suarez is a superb footballer. however before he can even be considered among the great strikers he really needs to up his game against better quality opposition. scoring goals against the top sides for the remainder of this season would be a good time to start.
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Postby mrtz » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:26 pm

Steely Hill wrote:
mrtz wrote:Obviously the quality of defenders comes into play. When they double up on him, you can't expect him to continue bagging in goals for fun. It's not like he never scores against top sides either -- his role isn't simply to score, he has 9 other guys on the outfield who can get space because opposition focus is on him, and for the most part, he gets guys like Henderson, Coutinho, and Sterling to get some space. He'll at least give us a chance by winning corners.

It's a testament to the quality of the defense rather than an indictment on Suarez.

Also, when you compare the quality of players around Aguero or Messi or Ronaldo to those around Suarez, it's not difficult to see who has the upper hand.


i've offered some stats of some 'inferior' players playing for more relateable teams to Suarez's Liverpool for comparative purposes.

is his role different against the top sides than against the bottom feeders? he's obviously there to score goals against the bottom feeders (and very good at it he is too) so why is he being deployed as a 'decoy' against the better teams?

if it is 'testament to the quality of the defence' doesn't that just confirm he is a flat track bully? unable to stand out against the good defenders but able to run rings around the cloggers.

isn't Liverpool's win ratio considerably better without Suarez than with it? interestingly, Ajax's record in the 10/11 season was also considerably better without Suarez.

Liverpool win % with or without Suarez over past 2 seasons (up to December i think)
With: 39%
Without: 70.5%

Ajax win % with or without Suarez in 10/11 season.
With: 53.8%
Without: 71.4%


Like I said, his role goes beyond just scoring. If you watch those games against the bigger teams, the whole squad usually struggles, and Suarez is usually the only one to make any considerable threats throughout those matches. Still a cut above the rest of the squad, and you don't have to look much further than Dirk Kuyt's hat trick against United under the Dalglish days where Suarez's exploits were all directly responsible for 3 Kuyt tap-ins. No Suarez, no goals.

Also, I wouldn't look into your percentages as much, both in those games above, and with the comparisons to Shearer and Henry, particularly because the sample sizes are about 30 games off each other.
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