Yes we have Colin. The marvellous Le Tournei in 1997. How could you possibly forget that?!

Lost to Brazil - oh the shame of it. The winners? Christ alive.
How did Portugal beat us, can you remind me? As for slaggin their players off - try not to twist what I'm saying. You think England are crap for not winning anything, I merely pointed out that other countries have performed no better recently.

I've had this discussion before elsewhere, people undermine great achievements(3 QF's), tremendous club success(16 England players in Champs League semis), and reputation of players in Europe and the world.
I finished with defending top quality players against people who are too stubborn to accept it.

Ian
Brazil had 10 men for half the game!!You undermine the game cos you believe the hype put out that we,re good.Our coaching scheme doesn,t work,How can you defend it.We can,t produce a team or a coach.What game are you looking at

Heavens above Colin. I think you are being rather harsh. You have some very valid points and i believe our coaching scheme is flawed. That said there are countries that i would say from what i have seen and read have a better scheme than exists in England yet are no more successful than we are.Im interested to here your views on how we can improve our system.

Well Strass
answer this first
Have or would Italy,Spain,Holland ,Germany,Argentina or Brazil employ a foreigner OR an English coach for their national team!!

I think i know where you are going with this but in a direct answer to your question the answer would be no. With the exception of Spain and Holland the others are the rare examples where big name players have gone on to manage national teams and been successful at it. As for spain, given recent flirtations with racism i really dont think anyone will ever manage them who is not spanish. There a hardly any english managers who ply their trade abroad for a host of reasons infact the same be said of english players.

Strass
The point you make about English players is relevant because they,ve come through the same system.Sure the racism in Spain is ignorant and appalling .It didn,t stop them signing Ronaldinio,Roberto Carlos and loads of others because they recognise players with outstanding skill.They haven,t been in the queue for Terry and Lampard!!

I never said it stopped them signing players. Just as a side note the players you reeled off are all spanish speaking and that is no coincidence. Also word has it that there was more than just a passing interest in Lampard - cant really see why but apparently there was. They have players like Terry so whats the point of importing him although i have to say hes good at what he does despite his stlye not being the most easy on the eye. Real Madrid bought Woodgate for heavens sake, what was all that about?

They bought Woodgate because he can play out from the back as well as defend.

And he was so good at it they sent him back. Rio Ferdinand is a much better defender and im not a Man U fan either. Or are you going to say that hes not that good because we dont here of European clubs falling over themselves to buy him. Which might just be because hes playing for a club thats as big as any of them, getting paid his worth, he's happy and his club are happy. However, if he was to be come available any time soon im sure there would be plenty of suiters for his services.

Holland have employed foreign managers in the past - a full 30 years before we did in fact!

Maybe we are the forward thinking ones, using the english bulldog and mixing a foreign idea. It worked until penalties for SVE, and it'll be a hard, stubborn man to bet against Capello.
Maybe these teams who are unsuccessful like us - Spain, Portugal, Germany, Argentina, Holland - should think about employing a foreign gaffer.

Ian
What are you talking about.Germany and Argentina as unsuccessful as us.Check your facts!! Holland world Cup finalists twice,Uero champions.
In the last 15 years name a foreigner who has managed the Dutch National Team!!
Strass I agree Rio Ferdinand is better but he was lucky cos he started off in midfield as a youth player and learnt to pass and play.However he,s not fulfilled his true potential due to his lifestyle as Alex Ferguson said the big challenge today at their level is not coaching the players but managing their lifestyle!!

Oh you are shortening the argument to the last 15 years then......well Holland haven't then no, they employed a Frenchman in the 70's.
Last 15 years...Germany won Euro 96, and Argentina's World Cup record? 2 quarter finals and 2 group stages. Holland have been similar to us recently, no World Cup in Korea, and no Euro win either.
So.

Holland knocked us Graham Taylor) out have you forgotten Germany knocked us out have you forgotten,Portugal knocked us out have you forgotten.Your talking about similar to us .We don,t want to be similar we want to be better!!!!.
Sure the the last 15 yrs how far do you want to go back to when USA beat us 1-0
If as you claim we,re,you,and the FA are developing such good players why don,t we win anything.How you can look at the Croatia match and defeend English football tells me everything

All i can say colin is that any brazilians reading this post must be glad that your english because the slating you would give them for not winning tournaments makse me quake to the core. It would be quite interesting though since they have the flair, the skill the invention, the players to win every tournament. But guess what? They dont and some of their games are very drab affairs indeed. Before you ask me which kind of football id like to see. The brazilian way but that said its more of the management than the players.

Colin - do you know the u17s World Cup score between Brazil and England.

I'd say the development and production of top players is there now.

Strass/Ian
If you really knew your football you,d know that winning under 17 world cups is no indication of player development in to the full game.
So are you saying Strass that we are producing Ronaldinios,Roberto Carloses,Ronaldos,Kakas in the same numbers or we play better football.
Ian concentrate on ballistic stretching!!

I never mentioned u17s world cup at all.

Colinbell/end

I'll never make a valid point with you around. Is beating a team at a youth age a good indicator of youth development?
Chip on shoulder, you seem to have one on both.

Got to say ian im going to add fuel to colins fire now as he already thinks we are one and the same. I agree with you Ian.

Colin you make some fair points but are way off the mark on others. Football at the business end is about success. Success on the field and off it. Clubs go about it as a business these days and rightly so as the money involved has attracted some big hitters. They are all looking to get an edge in the market place so why dont you take your revolutionary ideas to the clubs and youve got a few to choose from, prove to them that it works and is a better system than the ones they currently use that are implemented by some world renowned coaches. Then approach the FA and maybe they would follow your lead and enlist your help as an adviser to implement it at grass roots and into training courses and then maybe you too could get paid for coaching like me and not feel bad about it.

Hey Ian/Strass
Thats bad form using abuse no need for the bellend comment.However my son thought it was quite good!
Apologies Ian if I narked at you a bit I was out of order (forget the stretching comment) but as a young coach I only want to make you question and think.

Maybe he was narked because you not only dismiss his comments out of hand but assume that anyone who has a view different from your own is brainwashed by the FA. Oh and not to mention the fact that you assume Ian and I are one and the same. Also fair play to you for apologising to him.

of course you are not the same person thats why you,ve answered for Ian!!

i,m not anti establishment I,m anti poor coaching and poor coach education
I want to see England develop a style of play based on
high skill level with great individuals that kids want to copy
players because of their skill able to produce tactical cleverness
a playing style that has clever inter change and movement on and off the ball
a team that has defenders comfortable in 1 to 1 situations
that defend cleverly as a group
all players in all positions good on the ball
I WANT TO SEE OUR KIDS AS THE MOST SKILFULL IN THE PREMIERSHIP TEAMS
I WANT 75% PLAYERS IN THE PREMIER LEAGUE TO BE OUR KIDS

I might be right I might be wrong but have the FA ever laid down their playing philosophy NO they haven,t got one.So what are we producing for.Its like setting off on a journey but not knowing where you are going

How can you take money to coach kids when you don,t know what you are aiming at