How come Holland couldn't qualify for World Cup 02 with van der Saar, Davids, Bergkamp in their squad.
How come Portugal have won sweet nothing despite sa/Jaou Pinto, Figo, Baia, Ronaldo over the years?
How come Spain always underachieve when they have Torres, Raul, Guti etc playing for them?

Croatia beat us fair and square. But one campaign doesn't make a player bad.

Now hte players mentioned. Maybe I'm being a little hasty with including Lescott right now. Would you care to explain how the other 3 aren't worthy of being considered top class? Also name me a right back or a striker who has been better over the past 10 years.

Holland 2002 crap and stubborn manager
Portugal mental problem
Spain mental block

I have no problem with Rooney being a world class player but
Richards Lescott and Taylor all look to have limitation.
The production line for skillfull players is very small in England but loads of countries have the same problem.

Shij
Are you saying Michael Owen is a skilful player!

Shlj - excuses, excuses. If England could take penalties we'd be celebrating several trophies of the past decade alone.....but let's not use excuses.

mental blocks!!!! poor show

Colin. Name a level of football that Michael Owen hasn't scored at. Over the past decade only van nistelrooy, Ronaldo and Henry come close.

He is only good when he has had a good team around him. He doing well at Newcastle

He will never be an Alan Shearer or his level. What he done at Blackburn and Southampton Owen couldnt/ a wont at Newcastle. "with Blackburn was won the league just incase you didnt know"

Ian
its obvious you and I look at different things.I,m looking for cleverness,high skill level,awareness,innovative players Best,Dalglish,Zola,Ronaldo,Berkamp,Gazza,Bernabia,Torres maybe some day a Rooney.
However you can,t develop innovative players if you don,t have innovative coaches that is why the FA courses are no good.
However your choice keep your blinkers on.I wouldn,t pay to watch Owen.I feel sorry for Owen if he,d been brought up in Holland or France he,d have been a hell of a player.He can,t even kick with both feet

Feel sorry for Owen with 40 international goals? With the most competitive goals of any England player - ever? Sure if he'd learned his trade in Holland he'd bottle it at the highest level, have a bad attitude and be a fair bit more cocky than he is now.
I doubt Maradona needed an 'innovative' coach to become the star he was, nor Gazza or Pele. Puskas(you've heard of him) regularly said he was glad for all the coaching he did not receive.

G - I'm not saying Owen will be a Shearer despite his superior England record. I'm saying he has been just as good a striker as any other in the world over the past 8-10 years.

Shearer played within them years. Owen has only did good at Liverpool and for his nation.

The great thing about football gentlemen and ladies is that its a sport that lends itself to several differences of oppinion without anyon necessarilly being wrong. We can use statistics to emphasise our points as best we can but ultimately it boils down to what we as individuals prefer. Case in point Michael Owen was on course to become englands alltime record goal scorer and would have been picked to start regardless under previous management but the new regime thinks different and long may it continue. Ive allways being a believer in pick men in form regardless of reputation. That way we encourage a hunger to play and a desire to retain our place rather than an expectation of to play on reputation. Im sure we have all watched england games or any game for that matter and wondered just where the desire to play and to win had gone.

Best was the icing on the cake in a very good united team, the same for Dalglish and Liverpool, Ronaldo in a united team. Zola was a skillfull individual in a Chelsea team full of quality individuals and as such had to be content with cup success. Bergkamp played in a very good Arsenal team. Gazza - obviously skillfull, but terry venables once said he didnt have a clue about tracking back and didnt have a clue about tackling - not a trait you would want from a central midfielder. Consequently he achieved his greatest sucess with Rangers. Torres is undoubtedly a goal scorer but could hardly be mentioned in the same category as the others. Rooney is obviously another skillful player that maybe 1 day could be included with the others, but only time will tell. Somebody you didnt mention colin is John Barnes who certainly entertained in at least as equal measure as the aforementioned. Maybe it was the lets give the ball to gascoign syndrone that stifled his contribution with England. Again John Barnes played in a very good Liverpool side.

I love watching the skilled and gifted perform but i am all too aware that they do not make the team and that in order for them to perform they need the right players around them. If you had a team of Ronaldos they certainly wouldnt win anything and neither would a team full of the others. Ironically a team full of Roy Keanes might.

PS. If Owen had been brought up in Holland he probably wouldnt have played international football and thats not because i dont like him.

Ian
one result doesn,t make us a bad team!! We lost to 10 man Brazil in the WC and Portugal whose players you slagged beat us in the Euro,s
We haven,t won ANYTHING since 66
What planet are you on

Yes we have Colin. The marvellous Le Tournei in 1997. How could you possibly forget that?!

Lost to Brazil - oh the shame of it. The winners? Christ alive.
How did Portugal beat us, can you remind me? As for slaggin their players off - try not to twist what I'm saying. You think England are crap for not winning anything, I merely pointed out that other countries have performed no better recently.

I've had this discussion before elsewhere, people undermine great achievements(3 QF's), tremendous club success(16 England players in Champs League semis), and reputation of players in Europe and the world.
I finished with defending top quality players against people who are too stubborn to accept it.

Ian
Brazil had 10 men for half the game!!You undermine the game cos you believe the hype put out that we,re good.Our coaching scheme doesn,t work,How can you defend it.We can,t produce a team or a coach.What game are you looking at

Heavens above Colin. I think you are being rather harsh. You have some very valid points and i believe our coaching scheme is flawed. That said there are countries that i would say from what i have seen and read have a better scheme than exists in England yet are no more successful than we are.Im interested to here your views on how we can improve our system.

Well Strass
answer this first
Have or would Italy,Spain,Holland ,Germany,Argentina or Brazil employ a foreigner OR an English coach for their national team!!

I think i know where you are going with this but in a direct answer to your question the answer would be no. With the exception of Spain and Holland the others are the rare examples where big name players have gone on to manage national teams and been successful at it. As for spain, given recent flirtations with racism i really dont think anyone will ever manage them who is not spanish. There a hardly any english managers who ply their trade abroad for a host of reasons infact the same be said of english players.

Strass
The point you make about English players is relevant because they,ve come through the same system.Sure the racism in Spain is ignorant and appalling .It didn,t stop them signing Ronaldinio,Roberto Carlos and loads of others because they recognise players with outstanding skill.They haven,t been in the queue for Terry and Lampard!!

I never said it stopped them signing players. Just as a side note the players you reeled off are all spanish speaking and that is no coincidence. Also word has it that there was more than just a passing interest in Lampard - cant really see why but apparently there was. They have players like Terry so whats the point of importing him although i have to say hes good at what he does despite his stlye not being the most easy on the eye. Real Madrid bought Woodgate for heavens sake, what was all that about?

They bought Woodgate because he can play out from the back as well as defend.

And he was so good at it they sent him back. Rio Ferdinand is a much better defender and im not a Man U fan either. Or are you going to say that hes not that good because we dont here of European clubs falling over themselves to buy him. Which might just be because hes playing for a club thats as big as any of them, getting paid his worth, he's happy and his club are happy. However, if he was to be come available any time soon im sure there would be plenty of suiters for his services.