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Thread: The God Thread

  1. #11

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    Most people in the world are good people, when you seperate people out into their different religions (and athiests) , most people are still generally good. They are evil people that are religious and there are evil people that are not.
    I take it by "good" you mean they are capable of living in a community without resorting to criminal acts against others? Of course most people are capable of that much, but you only have to look at the history of warfare, racism, bigotry, domestic violence etc., to realise that underneath the skin people can be pretty nasty as well. The point I'm making is that religion fosters suspicion, superstition, bigotry and division. It exacerbates things and should be redundant in the 21st century, but as I said in my opening post it still has enormous influence, helping to keep the poor and ignorant in a state of poverty and ignorance.
    I'd be interested to hear about all the "good" you think religion does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    but consider this - at least the Saudis are open about f*cking children, which actually gives them the moral high ground compared to the Catholics who rape children outside of marriage and then cover it up. !
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    Surely your not suggesting that this behavouir is the limited to just the Catholics?!.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    No, I'm sure child rape goes on inside all religions, I don't have a special agenda against the RCs,
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    ................and Athiests aswell.
    Your point is? Because their is paedophilia in the secular world we shouldn't be too hard on religion just because they have child molesters as well? They are the ones telling us they represent God on Earth, they are the ones who say they have a cosy relationship with God and are happy to preach to others about morality, they are the ones who actively campaign against birth control in the Third World. Sinister virgins in frocks, as Chris Hitchens used to call them.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  2. #12

    Re: The God Thread

    Your belief in the extermination of all religions as a pre-requisite to peace is highly flawed. How different are you from the Crusaders who sought to exterminate one another on the basis on their beliefs about other religions?
    In thinking that the way to enact peace is by first destroying religions and other cultures - how different are you from ISIS? You are different from them in deeds, but certainly no different in thought.

    Because I stand up for religion (actually only one) one might brush me with the same brush and say I support other things. No, I find the sexual abuse of children absolutely repugnant. Having disagreements with the Catholics over certain theology, I could very well use this against them but I do not. Why? Because Catholicism or religion is not the reason why somebody behaves vilely, as if the outcome of establishing a parish of Catholics in a remote city is to birth a population of sexual abusers.

    Obviously not, but the opponents of religions are ever so determined to write this narrative.

    You can point them out for being hypocritical and you have every right to do so (Jesus would have done the same) but your proposed course of action throws the baby out with the bathwater. I hold a different course of logic as to why these matters happen and can only point out the foolishness of yours.

  3. #13

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek
    Your belief in the extermination of all religions as a pre-requisite to peace is highly flawed. How different are you from the Crusaders who sought to exterminate one another on the basis on their beliefs about other religions?
    In thinking that the way to enact peace is by first destroying religions and other cultures - how different are you from ISIS? You are different from them in deeds, but certainly no different in thought.
    Welcome back Yeek, I thought you might have got fed up with us after the last debate, you are in a minority here but I'm glad you've not been put off. I'm not out to "exterminate" religion by banning it mate, quite apart from transgressing human rights it wouldn't work anyway. Indeed, it would probably make religious people even more fervent in their beliefs, feelings of persecution and "martyrdom" fuel the religious fires.

    My desire is for people to choose to reject religion through scientific education and philosophical reason, unfortunately there are billions of people in the world who never get that opportunity. They are born into a religious culture, they have it drummed into them from the moment they are old enough, and often it is deemed a "sin" for them even to question what they are being told. It is extremely regressive, and keeps inquiring minds in shackles. In developing or third world nations, you often have no choice, sign up for the religion in your neighbourhood or face retribution (sometimes death).

    In the "educated West" Christianity has lost ground because people have the freedom to question what the church teaches and are doing so in increasing numbers. That's what I'm all about, give people the facts and let them make up their own mind. Keep religion out of politics and out of secular education (except for of course "Religious Studies" as an subject of human culture and history). I'd dearly love to see the whole of humanity get the same opportunities for education and critical thinking.

    I'm not saying getting rid of religion will prevent a world war, but I am saying religion might start one. It is redundant, and has nothing good to offer humanity that cannot be delivered by a secular society.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek
    Because I stand up for religion (actually only one) one might brush me with the same brush and say I support other things. No, I find the sexual abuse of children absolutely repugnant. Having disagreements with the Catholics over certain theology, I could very well use this against them but I do not. Why? Because Catholicism or religion is not the reason why somebody behaves vilely, as if the outcome of establishing a parish of Catholics in a remote city is to birth a population of sexual abusers.

    Obviously not, but the opponents of religions are ever so determined to write this narrative.

    You can point them out for being hypocritical and you have every right to do so (Jesus would have done the same) but your proposed course of action throws the baby out with the bathwater. I hold a different course of logic as to why these matters happen and can only point out the foolishness of yours.
    I understand that all religions are full of normal people, most of whom just want to get on with their lives without raping, stealing, or murdering anyone who follows a different god, I bring up the issue of things like child abuse to expose the "enforcers" and "teachers" of religion for what they are. They are ones who perpetuate the myths, and seek to keep its influence in education and politics. There are Christians in America seeking to get "creation science" taught in schools, they even have a "creation science" museum, where 'young earth' theories (that the world is 6-10,000 years old) are promoted. It has to be resisted by all rational educated people, and the more voices that speak out against such nonsense the better.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  4. #14

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    i actually agree with Yeek in the sense that complete abolition of religion is to force your views onto others which we know can lead to very dangerous paths.

    i expect that the influence of religion will continue to diminish perfectly in line with the increased education of children and emancipation and empowerment of women across various parts of the world.

    you'll almost certainly never be completely free of its far reaching tentacles but it is certainly naive to think that the eradication of religion would bring about world peace, or anything even close to that.
    Not what I'm saying Steely, see above for my response to Yeek.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  5. #15

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I take it by "good" you mean they are capable of living in a community without resorting to criminal acts against others? Of course most people are capable of that much, but you only have to look at the history of warfare, racism, bigotry, domestic violence etc., to realise that underneath the skin people can be pretty nasty as well. The point I'm making is that religion fosters suspicion, superstition, bigotry and division. It exacerbates things and should be redundant in the 21st century, but as I said in my opening post it still has enormous influence, helping to keep the poor and ignorant in a state of poverty and ignorance.
    I'd be interested to hear about all the "good" you think religion does.
    Most people are good, whether they follow a religion or not. You cannot blame the wars of the past on religion, Wars were fought by despotic leaders craving wealth and power - much the same as the most recent wars. Religion is just a flag to fight under - a recruiting agent for the leaders. It can also be used to bring people together.

    In my town there are 2 Christian charity shops, a Christian bookshop, a Christian charity warehouse and a Food Bank ran by a church so you can see quite clearly that on the most basic local level the church does good work and these are just a small fraction of similar projects across the world. There is nothing wrong with the Christian spirit, the idea of helping those less fortunate, forgiveness, charity, love and peace. People across the world live their life by these principles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Your point is? Because their is paedophilia in the secular world we shouldn't be too hard on religion just because they have child molesters as well? They are the ones telling us they represent God on Earth, they are the ones who say they have a cosy relationship with God and are happy to preach to others about morality, they are the ones who actively campaign against birth control in the Third World. Sinister virgins in frocks, as Chris Hitchens used to call them.
    Paedophilia within religous organisations is an example of people abusing their positions of power and betraying the people that they are meant to help. There are examples of this in the Police Force, Teaching, Doctors even Scout Leaders!, but these are special organisations that benefit our society so using this a stick to beat them with and trying to suggest that Peadophillia and religion go hand in hand is misleading. The church are guilty of covering up but this happens in other areas too - Jimmy Saville being the obvious example. We are just begining to discover the truth about the cover ups of sexual abuse in Parliament but I will defend democracy all the way.

    My view has always been that while most religion is based upon superstition and blind faith, if people want to believe in it and use it as something to cling on to when their life is getting hard then i don't see a problem and i would not belittle them or tell them they are stupid. As long as their actions do not harm anyone else then well.....God bless 'em!.

  6. #16

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I'm not saying getting rid of religion will prevent a world war, but I am saying religion might start one. It is redundant, and has nothing good to offer humanity that cannot be delivered by a secular society.
    All systems of thoughts, all ideologies, philosophical and religious have potentials to start wars. Including science. False understanding of the science of eugenics among the Nazis, a communist-democratic struggle that has created two Koreas are examples of that. At the moment, with income disparity rising and rising, if I was a world leader, the war I would be worried about after Terrorism and Middle Eastern conflict, is the potential for class struggles to turn out into a full blown war.

    I understand that all religions are full of normal people, most of whom just want to get on with their lives without raping, stealing, or murdering anyone who follows a different god, I bring up the issue of things like child abuse to expose the "enforcers" and "teachers" of religion for what they are. They are ones who perpetuate the myths, and seek to keep its influence in education and politics. There are Christians in America seeking to get "creation science" taught in schools, they even have a "creation science" museum, where 'young earth' theories (that the world is 6-10,000 years old) are promoted. It has to be resisted by all rational educated people, and the more voices that speak out against such nonsense the better.
    I don't really have an opinion of this but in the marketplace of ideas, Christianity or other religions will never perish from a marketplace of systems of thoughts. I don't know why you believe that more and more education means people will be "liberated" from religion. My own experience seems to indicate otherwise (very anecdotal). Its partly because many of the knowledge acquired does not explain matters of purpose, existentialism, and so on. They operate in I would say different categories of knowledge. Even if that whole Enlightenment period is re-enacted, we would still get Christianity flourishing (I have a different theological reason as to why that is so, but it seems irrelevant to you so I do not wish to bring it up). Just as many people have been "liberated" from religion, I would argue that more people have too been "liberated" from strict secular thinking. I understand that you argue mostly for those where religion and culture are synonymous (Middle East and India). I can't speak too much about it.

    I don't agree too much with Nietzsche for example (in fact, I don't really understand much of what he stands for - he seems to want to tear down everything) but do I want to pummel people from studying his thoughts? This example serves is just simply to show you that there are many many things operating in a marketplace of ideas.

  7. #17

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by yeek
    Because I stand up for religion (actually only one) one might brush me with the same brush and say I support other things. No, I find the sexual abuse of children absolutely repugnant. Having disagreements with the Catholics over certain theology, I could very well use this against them but I do not. Why? Because Catholicism or religion is not the reason why somebody behaves vilely, as if the outcome of establishing a parish of Catholics in a remote city is to birth a population of sexual abusers.

    Obviously not, but the opponents of religions are ever so determined to write this narrative.
    personally speaking, while the crimes are abhorrent, what i find even more unforgivable was the systematic cover up conducted by the Church which simply moved these nonces into new areas - often to continue their crimes - rather than allow the Church to be 'shamed' by admitting this problem within their ranks.

    so yeah, it is wrong to suggest Catholicism is the reason for this behaviour but it is accurate to say that Catholicism enabled and tolerated this behaviour.
    i sincerely believe that Catholicism should be reformed with the laity more empowered to transform it, instead of appointing a leader and placing every burden on him.
    its an issue that affects their witness and as an outside observer, i am not sure why they are not doing more.

  8. #18

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus

    Most people are good, whether they follow a religion or not. You cannot blame the wars of the past on religion, Wars were fought by despotic leaders craving wealth and power - much the same as the most recent wars. Religion is just a flag to fight under - a recruiting agent for the leaders. It can also be used to bring people together.
    Christians would disagree that most people are good you know, their world view is that we are "fallen man" because of the sin of Adam and Eve, hence we need salvation. We can never be "good" because of the sin of the first two human beings they claim, and to an extent I'd agree but not for the same reasons. We evolved to have the same predatorial, territorial instincts you see in other mammals, hence there is a warfare going on somewhere on the globe 24/7, 365 days a year. Our behaviour is still strongly influenced by base instinct.
    You make my point for me - religion is a flag to fight under but it is unique because it puts the divine seal of approval on killing other human beings. No philosophy or political system can produce the hatred, bigotry and blind certainty that religion can. Indians and Pakistanis are basically the same people, the only reason they hate and kill each other is religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    In my town there are 2 Christian charity shops, a Christian bookshop, a Christian charity warehouse and a Food Bank ran by a church so you can see quite clearly that on the most basic local level the church does good work and these are just a small fraction of similar projects across the world. There is nothing wrong with the Christian spirit, the idea of helping those less fortunate, forgiveness, charity, love and peace. People across the world live their life by these principles.
    Pretty lame Seamus! The Protestant and Catholic church are both extremely wealthy, a couple of charity shops and a food bank is hardly "light of the world" stuff. I'd be interested to see their definition of "charity" btw, Mother Teresa raked in millions (from some pretty unsavoury people at times) and the majority went on extending her own particular religious organisation, not on medical supplies and food for the impoverished people she purported to care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    Paedophilia within religous organisations is an example of people abusing their positions of power and betraying the people that they are meant to help. There are examples of this in the Police Force, Teaching, Doctors even Scout Leaders!, but these are special organisations that benefit our society so using this a stick to beat them with and trying to suggest that Peadophillia and religion go hand in hand is misleading. The church are guilty of covering up but this happens in other areas too - Jimmy Saville being the obvious example. We are just begining to discover the truth about the cover ups of sexual abuse in Parliament but I will defend democracy all the way.

    My view has always been that while most religion is based upon superstition and blind faith, if people want to believe in it and use it as something to cling on to when their life is getting hard then i don't see a problem and i would not belittle them or tell them they are stupid. As long as their actions do not harm anyone else then well.....God bless 'em!.
    No, I'm not saying religion and paedophilia go hand in hand, I'm saying the fact that it does go on exposes the hypocrisy about the sexual morality they preach, and belies the nonsense that they are anything other than a man made organisation. I actually heard a Catholic apologist once make the point that the stats indicate there are fewer paedophiles in the church as a percentage, than there are in the secular world. I wanted to reach into the radio and punch some sense into the twat. I suspect he's wrong anyway because the Vatican is highly secretive and we all know it carried out a cover up for the wretches engaged in child abuse, I strongly suspect there are plenty who escaped the net. Would you feel comfortable about leaving a child in the care of one of the frock wearing breed? Damn sure I wouldn't.

    I used to share your view that "if people want to believe in this old crap, what's the harm?" but I've changed my view over time for the following reasons:

    1) If you think religion is a fiction, you should worry that people believe it to be true. It creates needless bigotry and division that otherwise might not exist at all, and prevents people from "inter-breeding" because they pray to a different invisible agent - that is f*cking nuts, it has to be opposed.

    2) The "moderate" forms of religion only legitimise the more "extreme" and violent groups that carry out atrocities. They perpetuate the religious myths as being true from generation to generation. The men who flew the plane into the twin towers were educated, middle class people, not brainwashed goat herders. They chose to do what they did because they really believed the nonsense in their holy book. The same could be said for the lads who carried out the London bombings. Don't give me "ah well, that's the Muslims for you" as there are plenty of Christian atrocities in recent times, just as bloody and appalling.

    Religion has to opposed and reasoned against by every man or woman who would rather live in a world where people with little power or a lot of power (like presidents of America) don't think their is an invisible man pulling the strings in the world.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  9. #19

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Christians would disagree that most people are good you know, their world view is that we are "fallen man" because of the sin of Adam and Eve, hence we need salvation. We can never be "good" because of the sin of the first two human beings they claim, and to an extent I'd agree but not for the same reasons. We evolved to have the same predatorial, territorial instincts you see in other mammals, hence there is a warfare going on somewhere on the globe 24/7, 365 days a year. Our behaviour is still strongly influenced by base instinct.
    Thats more of a Catholic view really and not very convincing. Why are the majority of religious people not tearing each other part?, why are the majority living in peace with each other?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    You make my point for me - religion is a flag to fight under but it is unique because it puts the divine seal of approval on killing other human beings. No philosophy or political system can produce the hatred, bigotry and blind certainty that religion can. Indians and Pakistanis are basically the same people, the only reason they hate and kill each other is religion.
    The vast majority do not want to kill each other!. The main bone of contention between the 2 nations is land. People in wars over the years have killed in other causes like nationalism - as i said before religion does not cause war, it is the power crazed leaders that do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Pretty lame Seamus! The Protestant and Catholic church are both extremely wealthy, a couple of charity shops and a food bank is hardly "light of the world" stuff. I'd be interested to see their definition of "charity" btw, Mother Teresa raked in millions (from some pretty unsavoury people at times) and the majority went on extending her own particular religious organisation, not on medical supplies and food for the impoverished people she purported to care about.
    Lame? - you asked for proof about the good work that is done in the name of religion and I have told you about some projects on my doorstep!. As i have already pointed out this is part of a network across the world. I understand the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church and how their vast wealth could help eleviate world poverty but the church does not follow the true word of God as Jesus told rich people to give all their possessions away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    No, I'm not saying religion and paedophilia go hand in hand, I'm saying the fact that it does go on exposes the hypocrisy about the sexual morality they preach, and belies the nonsense that they are anything other than a man made organisation. I actually heard a Catholic apologist once make the point that the stats indicate there are fewer paedophiles in the church as a percentage, than there are in the secular world. I wanted to reach into the radio and punch some sense into the twat. I suspect he's wrong anyway because the Vatican is highly secretive and we all know it carried out a cover up for the wretches engaged in child abuse, I strongly suspect there are plenty who escaped the net. Would you feel comfortable about leaving a child in the care of one of the frock wearing breed? Damn sure I wouldn't.
    But you dont know the true figures, you're just using assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I used to share your view that "if people want to believe in this old crap, what's the harm?" but I've changed my view over time for the following reasons:

    1) If you think religion is a fiction, you should worry that people believe it to be true. It creates needless bigotry and division that otherwise might not exist at all, and prevents people from "inter-breeding" because they pray to a different invisible agent - that is f*cking nuts, it has to be opposed.
    But how many religious people oppose such 'inter breeding'?. My Father was raised a Catholic and my Mother was C of E. They didn't care about the difference of religion and most people didn't even notice,. People are divided by other things than religion, like social class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    2) The "moderate" forms of religion only legitimise the more "extreme" and violent groups that carry out atrocities. They perpetuate the religious myths as being true from generation to generation. The men who flew the plane into the twin towers were educated, middle class people, not brainwashed goat herders. They chose to do what they did because they really believed the nonsense in their holy book. The same could be said for the lads who carried out the London bombings. Don't give me "ah well, that's the Muslims for you" as there are plenty of Christian atrocities in recent times, just as bloody and appalling.
    9/11 had a political angle as everybody knows, they were evil men who hid behind the religious text. This wasn't a war waged on the West by Islam as Fox news would have you believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Religion has to opposed and reasoned against by every man or woman who would rather live in a world where people with little power or a lot of power (like presidents of America) don't think their is an invisible man pulling the strings in the world.
    The only people pulling the strings of the U.S President is the Oil Lobby, however I do agree that the Tea Party Republicans are a bunch that needs to be watched closely - they are Christian extremists.

  10. #20

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek

    All systems of thoughts, all ideologies, philosophical and religious have potentials to start wars. Including science. False understanding of the science of eugenics among the Nazis, a communist-democratic struggle that has created two Koreas are examples of that. At the moment, with income disparity rising and rising, if I was a world leader, the war I would be worried about after Terrorism and Middle Eastern conflict, is the potential for class struggles to turn out into a full blown war. .
    I'm not saying secular ideologies will lead to sunshine and lollipops for all Yeek, the point I'm making is that religion fosters division and bigotry, and as I've said there is nothing that can whip up hatred quite like religion can. From my point of view all religions are fiction - you can understand people fighting over territory and resources, but fighting over an invisible agent (whose nature varies depending on your flavour of religion, and none of them agree) is insanity. You have to concede that if what you believe about Jesus is false, your religion is not just utterly worthless, it is actually harmful. The same goes for every other religion of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek
    I don't really have an opinion of this but in the marketplace of ideas, Christianity or other religions will never perish from a marketplace of systems of thoughts. I don't know why you believe that more and more education means people will be "liberated" from religion. .
    The statistics indicate a decline in the Christian religion in first world countries, I believe that is mainly down to people having exposure to secular education, but also down to a greater understanding of how religions originate, and a greater understanding of ourselves (human psychology, how our brains work etc.). Also, a lot of Christian claims or biblical claims have been strongly challenged by secular scholars over the years, and the flaws have been exposed. The trouble is vast swathes of humanity never get a chance to at least explore other ideas about the origins of life, they are force fed a diet of religion from an early age and told it is a sin to question or doubt it. I'm sure you'd agree people should examine and interrogate whatever they are told, that's what I'd like see happen with religion. The trouble is that in many countries religion has a vested interest in making sure the masses are denied an education that allows them the chance to explore secular ideas about ourselves and the universe.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

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