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Thread: The God Thread

  1. #21

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Christians would disagree that most people are good you know, their world view is that we are "fallen man" because of the sin of Adam and Eve, hence we need salvation. We can never be "good" because of the sin of the first two human beings they claim, and to an extent I'd agree but not for the same reasons. We evolved to have the same predatorial, territorial instincts you see in other mammals, hence there is a warfare going on somewhere on the globe 24/7, 365 days a year. Our behaviour is still strongly influenced by base instinct.
    Thats more of a Catholic view really and not very convincing. Why are the majority of religious people not tearing each other part?, why are the majority living in peace with each other?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    You make my point for me - religion is a flag to fight under but it is unique because it puts the divine seal of approval on killing other human beings. No philosophy or political system can produce the hatred, bigotry and blind certainty that religion can. Indians and Pakistanis are basically the same people, the only reason they hate and kill each other is religion.
    The vast majority do not want to kill each other!. The main bone of contention between the 2 nations is land. People in wars over the years have killed in other causes like nationalism - as i said before religion does not cause war, it is the power crazed leaders that do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Pretty lame Seamus! The Protestant and Catholic church are both extremely wealthy, a couple of charity shops and a food bank is hardly "light of the world" stuff. I'd be interested to see their definition of "charity" btw, Mother Teresa raked in millions (from some pretty unsavoury people at times) and the majority went on extending her own particular religious organisation, not on medical supplies and food for the impoverished people she purported to care about.
    Lame? - you asked for proof about the good work that is done in the name of religion and I have told you about some projects on my doorstep!. As i have already pointed out this is part of a network across the world. I understand the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church and how their vast wealth could help eleviate world poverty but the church does not follow the true word of God as Jesus told rich people to give all their possessions away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    No, I'm not saying religion and paedophilia go hand in hand, I'm saying the fact that it does go on exposes the hypocrisy about the sexual morality they preach, and belies the nonsense that they are anything other than a man made organisation. I actually heard a Catholic apologist once make the point that the stats indicate there are fewer paedophiles in the church as a percentage, than there are in the secular world. I wanted to reach into the radio and punch some sense into the twat. I suspect he's wrong anyway because the Vatican is highly secretive and we all know it carried out a cover up for the wretches engaged in child abuse, I strongly suspect there are plenty who escaped the net. Would you feel comfortable about leaving a child in the care of one of the frock wearing breed? Damn sure I wouldn't.
    But you dont know the true figures, you're just using assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I used to share your view that "if people want to believe in this old crap, what's the harm?" but I've changed my view over time for the following reasons:

    1) If you think religion is a fiction, you should worry that people believe it to be true. It creates needless bigotry and division that otherwise might not exist at all, and prevents people from "inter-breeding" because they pray to a different invisible agent - that is f*cking nuts, it has to be opposed.
    But how many religious people oppose such 'inter breeding'?. My Father was raised a Catholic and my Mother was C of E. They didn't care about the difference of religion and most people didn't even notice,. People are divided by other things than religion, like social class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    2) The "moderate" forms of religion only legitimise the more "extreme" and violent groups that carry out atrocities. They perpetuate the religious myths as being true from generation to generation. The men who flew the plane into the twin towers were educated, middle class people, not brainwashed goat herders. They chose to do what they did because they really believed the nonsense in their holy book. The same could be said for the lads who carried out the London bombings. Don't give me "ah well, that's the Muslims for you" as there are plenty of Christian atrocities in recent times, just as bloody and appalling.
    9/11 had a political angle as everybody knows, they were evil men who hid behind the religious text. This wasn't a war waged on the West by Islam as Fox news would have you believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Religion has to opposed and reasoned against by every man or woman who would rather live in a world where people with little power or a lot of power (like presidents of America) don't think their is an invisible man pulling the strings in the world.
    The only people pulling the strings of the U.S President is the Oil Lobby, however I do agree that the Tea Party Republicans are a bunch that needs to be watched closely - they are Christian extremists.

  2. #22

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek

    All systems of thoughts, all ideologies, philosophical and religious have potentials to start wars. Including science. False understanding of the science of eugenics among the Nazis, a communist-democratic struggle that has created two Koreas are examples of that. At the moment, with income disparity rising and rising, if I was a world leader, the war I would be worried about after Terrorism and Middle Eastern conflict, is the potential for class struggles to turn out into a full blown war. .
    I'm not saying secular ideologies will lead to sunshine and lollipops for all Yeek, the point I'm making is that religion fosters division and bigotry, and as I've said there is nothing that can whip up hatred quite like religion can. From my point of view all religions are fiction - you can understand people fighting over territory and resources, but fighting over an invisible agent (whose nature varies depending on your flavour of religion, and none of them agree) is insanity. You have to concede that if what you believe about Jesus is false, your religion is not just utterly worthless, it is actually harmful. The same goes for every other religion of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek
    I don't really have an opinion of this but in the marketplace of ideas, Christianity or other religions will never perish from a marketplace of systems of thoughts. I don't know why you believe that more and more education means people will be "liberated" from religion. .
    The statistics indicate a decline in the Christian religion in first world countries, I believe that is mainly down to people having exposure to secular education, but also down to a greater understanding of how religions originate, and a greater understanding of ourselves (human psychology, how our brains work etc.). Also, a lot of Christian claims or biblical claims have been strongly challenged by secular scholars over the years, and the flaws have been exposed. The trouble is vast swathes of humanity never get a chance to at least explore other ideas about the origins of life, they are force fed a diet of religion from an early age and told it is a sin to question or doubt it. I'm sure you'd agree people should examine and interrogate whatever they are told, that's what I'd like see happen with religion. The trouble is that in many countries religion has a vested interest in making sure the masses are denied an education that allows them the chance to explore secular ideas about ourselves and the universe.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  3. #23

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus

    Thats more of a Catholic view really and not very convincing. Why are the majority of religious people not tearing each other part?, why are the majority living in peace with each other?.
    No, it is very much a Christian idea Seamus, ask a Baptist or a Methodist. The Christian world view makes little sense with original sin, it makes NO sense without it.
    Isn't there enough violence stemming from religion in the world to make you think there may be an issue? Ireland, India, the Middle East, Bosnia and Herzegovina for example have seen plenty of deaths based on religious bigotry and hatred in relatively recent history. You don't have to go back to the Crusades or the Inquisition.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    The vast majority do not want to kill each other!. The main bone of contention between the 2 nations is land. People in wars over the years have killed in other causes like nationalism - as i said before religion does not cause war, it is the power crazed leaders that do.
    Religion fuels the fire when it comes to fighting over resources or territory, as I've said before there is nothing quite like it when you need a reason to whip up hatred, even if your main objective is the acquisition of territory or wealth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    Lame? - you asked for proof about the good work that is done in the name of religion and I have told you about some projects on my doorstep!. As i have already pointed out this is part of a network across the world. I understand the hypocrisy of the Catholic Church and how their vast wealth could help eleviate world poverty but the church does not follow the true word of God as Jesus told rich people to give all their possessions away.
    I call it lame not just because the church is dripping with wealth and could do so much more to help, but because they claim to be God's representative on Earth. Seems like the state does more than God for the poor and sick these days. Religious organisations exist primarily to grow their numbers and increase their influence on the wider world. They aint a force for good, if you have some time watch this highly entertaining debate about this very subject.
    Beats a political debate any day!



    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    But you dont know the true figures, you're just using assumptions..
    Well even the Pope estimates there are around 2% (8000) paedophile Catholic priests in the church. I guess that figure is low for obvious reasons, its not great publicity for the church being the main one. I'd also say there are other factors at work here though - RC priests can't have sex with women meaning there is a greater chance of sexual deviancy developing, and some may join the priesthood for the very reason that they have a ready supply of children who can be abused in an environment that is fairly safe for the abuser. The child can be silenced with threats of punishment from God, and even if the abuse is exposed the church has a history of covering it up.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    The only people pulling the strings of the U.S President is the Oil Lobby, however I do agree that the Tea Party Republicans are a bunch that needs to be watched closely - they are Christian extremists.
    I think you underestimate the strength of religious influence in American politics, it has a lot of power. I'm not saying religion should be banned or that religious people are idiots. What I'm saying is religion should be challenged and exposed by educated non believers at every opportunity, to progress the work of reducing its influence in the world. The more voices that challenge these myths the more chance people will start to live their lives based on observable reality, and not on stories in holy books written thousands of years ago. That has to be a good thing, right?
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  4. #24

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    No, it is very much a Christian idea Seamus, ask a Baptist or a Methodist. The Christian world view makes little sense with original sin, it makes NO sense without it.
    Isn't there enough violence stemming from religion in the world to make you think there may be an issue? Ireland, India, the Middle East, Bosnia and Herzegovina for example have seen plenty of deaths based on religious bigotry and hatred in relatively recent history. You don't have to go back to the Crusades or the Inquisition.
    The wars you mention were about land and governance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I call it lame not just because the church is dripping with wealth and could do so much more to help, but because they claim to be God's representative on Earth. Seems like the state does more than God for the poor and sick these days. Religious organisations exist primarily to grow their numbers and increase their influence on the wider world. They aint a force for good, if you have some time watch this highly entertaining debate about this very subject.
    Beats a political debate any day!
    You are dismissing all the good works that are done in the name of religion, have you ever heard of church based charities like the Salvation Army?! - there are thousands of charities that are affiliated with religious organizations across the world. There are good and bad sides to religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    Well even the Pope estimates there are around 2% (8000) paedophile Catholic priests in the church. I guess that figure is low for obvious reasons, its not great publicity for the church being the main one. I'd also say there are other factors at work here though - RC priests can't have sex with women meaning there is a greater chance of sexual deviancy developing, and some may join the priesthood for the very reason that they have a ready supply of children who can be abused in an environment that is fairly safe for the abuser. The child can be silenced with threats of punishment from God, and even if the abuse is exposed the church has a history of covering it up.
    So now you are willing to believe what the pope says?. This is still all assumptions. There are sexual abuse scandals in the Police Force, Teaching, Care Homes and Government. There are also cover ups, Just look at the recent cases with Jimmy Saville, Cyril Smith and Leon Brittain. You make it sound as if the church is a huge Peadophile network!. You suggestion that Catholicism makes people Peadophiles is full of holes - maybe the Police should investigate all virgins?!.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I think you underestimate the strength of religious influence in American politics, it has a lot of power. I'm not saying religion should be banned or that religious people are idiots. What I'm saying is religion should be challenged and exposed by educated non believers at every opportunity, to progress the work of reducing its influence in the world. The more voices that challenge these myths the more chance people will start to live their lives based on observable reality, and not on stories in holy books written thousands of years ago. That has to be a good thing, right?
    The vast majority of people who follow religion do not follow what is written in the Bible literally do they?. How many Christians do you know that are involved in stoning gay people and selling their kids into slavery?. People follow the bits that they like - usually the acceptable bits about helping others. There are of course those Tea Party weirdos in America talking crap about religion but every time the likes of Bachmann and Perry open their mouths the nation groans any even the religious Americans see through it. Their support is not the religious but the rich and since you are fond of the words of Christopher Hitchens here are the words of another Philosopher famed for his attacks on the church - Voltaire 'When it comes to money, everyone is of the same religion'.

  5. #25

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus

    The wars you mention were about land and governance.
    You're saying religion had nothing to do with those conflicts? Nonsense, don't ignore facts in order to score points on a discussion forum.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    You are dismissing all the good works that are done in the name of religion, have you ever heard of church based charities like the Salvation Army?! - there are thousands of charities that are affiliated with religious organizations across the world. There are good and bad sides to religion.
    Yep, Hamas does humanitarian stuff as well, don't ask me to be impressed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    So now you are willing to believe what the pope says?. This is still all assumptions. There are sexual abuse scandals in the Police Force, Teaching, Care Homes and Government. There are also cover ups, Just look at the recent cases with Jimmy Saville, Cyril Smith and Leon Brittain. You make it sound as if the church is a huge Peadophile network!. You suggestion that Catholicism makes people Peadophiles is full of holes - maybe the Police should investigate all virgins?!..
    No, you didn't read my post. I don't believe what he says. Where are you going with secular comparisons? Isn't the church meant to be Jesus on Earth? The church claims to be led by the Holy Spirit, raping children should be at 0%, there isn't a tolerance level.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus
    The vast majority of people who follow religion do not follow what is written in the Bible literally do they?. How many Christians do you know that are involved in stoning gay people and selling their kids into slavery?. People follow the bits that they like - usually the acceptable bits about helping others. There are of course those Tea Party weirdos in America talking crap about religion but every time the likes of Bachmann and Perry open their mouths the nation groans any even the religious Americans see through it. Their support is not the religious but the rich and since you are fond of the words of Christopher Hitchens here are the words of another Philosopher famed for his attacks on the church - Voltaire 'When it comes to money, everyone is of the same religion'.
    I absolutely agree that Christians pick and choose the verses in the bible that suits their concept of God. I absolutely agree that everyone is motivated by money. Your point is?
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  6. #26

    Re: The God Thread

    Motivated by money and Power.

  7. #27

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    I'm not saying secular ideologies will lead to sunshine and lollipops for all Yeek, the point I'm making is that religion fosters division and bigotry, and as I've said there is nothing that can whip up hatred quite like religion can. From my point of view all religions are fiction - you can understand people fighting over territory and resources, but fighting over an invisible agent (whose nature varies depending on your flavour of religion, and none of them agree) is insanity. You have to concede that if what you believe about Jesus is false, your religion is not just utterly worthless, it is actually harmful. The same goes for every other religion of course.
    What about your current ideology about the eradication of religions? Is it one of peace? Can you not detect the irony of secularism perpetuating and fostering the very division and bigotry towards the religious in an apparent concern for "peace"? Most wars are a coming together of many, many factors. If you studied the causes of World War II you will note the mixture of an absurd Treaty of Versailles, Rise of Hitler in a weak Weimar Republic, and lots of other things. Most "religious wars" have little to with religion. How much of what happens in North Ireland is actually religious? Do they argue over the doctrine of baptism for example?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967
    The statistics indicate a decline in the Christian religion in first world countries, I believe that is mainly down to people having exposure to secular education, but also down to a greater understanding of how religions originate, and a greater understanding of ourselves (human psychology, how our brains work etc.). Also, a lot of Christian claims or biblical claims have been strongly challenged by secular scholars over the years, and the flaws have been exposed. The trouble is vast swathes of humanity never get a chance to at least explore other ideas about the origins of life, they are force fed a diet of religion from an early age and told it is a sin to question or doubt it. I'm sure you'd agree people should examine and interrogate whatever they are told, that's what I'd like see happen with religion. The trouble is that in many countries religion has a vested interest in making sure the masses are denied an education that allows them the chance to explore secular ideas about ourselves and the universe.
    Two things:
    1) The believe that Christianity is in decline is only a valid argument if you think of conversion as a matter of the will, i.e. I have decided today to be a Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim, and rationally redirect my mind towards their objectives.
    Christianity has a very different explanation of how people become Christians. Signs of so-called attrition of how people have "left the faith" usually prove that they were never Christians to begin with.
    It is because of the process of conversion, of being spiritually born again, that will ensure its health. This process is nearly impossible to measure for us to comment on its health. Historically it has been shown to explode in burst of growths at various times, i.e. Reformation, Great Awakening. Jesus said "I will build my church" in Matt 16. (by this it is referring to gathering his own, and not to a physical building). He will see out his own work.

    I will however comment about the recent popularity of secularism and humanist thinking. Many people think that this a new thing, and thus are tremendously optimistic about its ability to push out religions. It is not true. A cursory glance through history throughout its different eras and ages will show you that it will not happen.

    2) I agree that people should examine and interrogate whatever they are told but please subject whatever you believe about religion or secularist thinking to the same scrutiny you are proposing. Or let me re-word this in another way, scrutinize the atheistic popes that is Hitchens, Dawkins, and many others and examine what they say instead of, pardon me, "believing whatever they say". Chiefly, you may start with the following hyperbolic statements you have made in this thread or what I gather you seem to hold:
    a) "Religion is the source of all division and bigotry"
    b) "No good can come out of religion"
    c) "People who adopt religion have not thought through things themselves, if they have, the only logical outcome is secular thinking"

  8. #28

    Re: The God Thread

    Yeeks, the Turin Shroud is being put out for public viewing again. what do you make of that?

    genuine article? fanciful symbolism? outright fraud?

  9. #29

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    Yeeks, the Turin Shroud is being put out for public viewing again. what do you make of that?

    genuine article? fanciful symbolism? outright fraud?
    couldn't care less

  10. #30

    Re: The God Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by yeek
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    Yeeks, the Turin Shroud is being put out for public viewing again. what do you make of that?

    genuine article? fanciful symbolism? outright fraud?
    couldn't care less


    i certainly wasn't expecting that answer!

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