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Thread: Another US gun massacre

  1. #121
    If legislation was the same in the US as it is in the UK then I don't believe this kind of incident would've happened.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    but who is going to willingly be the gun owners that make that start? if you're a 'good guy' giving up your gun in an amnesty (presumably the government would need to pay some money as compensation/incentive for doing so?) but you're well aware that the 'bad guys' will simply bury theirs in the garden, why would you willingly leave yourself vulnerable when you know you're not entering a level playing field?
    No, like I said you have to start somewhere, trying something like "prohibition" would never work, it has to done in small steps. How about an amnesty for illegal firearms (with NO compensation) to start off with? Then you legislate to hit anyone found with an illegal firearm with a heavy custodial sentence, and forbid them to own any firearms in the future. Then you outlaw the sale of automatic or semi-automatic weapons to civilians; tell me what civilian needs an automatic gun ffs? It is f*cking nuts.

    Eventually you get to the stage where you can increase the screening for anyone applying for a gun licence, and you make it illegal for civilians to carry concealed firearms (unbelievably you can get a licence to carry concealed firearms as a civilian in America). I'm thinking years (possibly decades) and not months here, as I say America is in love with guns, the gun lobby will fiercely resist any restriction in gun ownership. Even with my "softly softly" approach I expect some A-holes would go and shoot up a police station or something in protest, but so what? Gun massacres are a fact of life over there anyway, at least they would have a reason to go on a killing spree, and eventually the culture would begin to change as guns got harder to come by.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    anyone who is willing to give up their gun are most likely non-gun owners anyway.
    You've been listening to Trump too much, you are beginning to make as much sense as him!
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    those who own guns presumably do so for specific reasons and those reasons do not suddenly become mitigated because of a law change.
    I've no problem with professionals owning guns; police, army etc., and obviously farmers and hunters have a legitimate use for them, but the vast majority of civilians in America want them for "personal security" or criminal activity. That isn't a good reason, civilians owning guns in great numbers leads to massacres as a percentage of any civilian population is f*cking mad. This isn't about "human rights" it is about sensible government, sensible policing of the population.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    how many guns are out there? how much ammo? how many parts and modification tools? how many businesses reliant on the sale of them?

    I really do think it is a hopeless battle in ridding the country of its civilian arsenal.
    In America there are probably enough guns and ammo in civilian hands to put a bullet in the head of half the human population, like I say it is insane. I never said it would be easy to make America sane, but that doesn't mean you don't at least try does it?
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967 View Post
    No, like I said you have to start somewhere, trying something like "prohibition" would never work, it has to done in small steps. How about an amnesty for illegal firearms (with NO compensation) to start off with? Then you legislate to hit anyone found with an illegal firearm with a heavy custodial sentence, and forbid them to own any firearms in the future. Then you outlaw the sale of automatic or semi-automatic weapons to civilians; tell me what civilian needs an automatic gun ffs? It is f*cking nuts.?
    what are the current sentences for possessing a illegal firearm over there? I thought automatic weapons were already illegal?

    but yeah, the whole gun culture is f*cking nuts. but the US is nuts in so many different ways. when you're a country of no culture you tend to find they create a phoney culture and guns is about all they've got.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967 View Post
    Eventually you get to the stage where you can increase the screening for anyone applying for a gun licence, and you make it illegal for civilians to carry concealed firearms (unbelievably you can get a licence to carry concealed firearms as a civilian in America). I'm thinking years (possibly decades) and not months here, as I say America is in love with guns, the gun lobby will fiercely resist any restriction in gun ownership. Even with my "softly softly" approach I expect some A-holes would go and shoot up a police station or something in protest, but so what? Gun massacres are a fact of life over there anyway, at least they would have a reason to go on a killing spree, and eventually the culture would begin to change as guns got harder to come by.
    guns really wouldn't be harder to come by. they are everywhere so unless you're going to go on a 24/7 melt-a-thon you're going to struggle to keep on top of it. I doubt there is any central record of who owns what weapon. so how on earth can you be sure that Old Man Joe down the road doesn't have one stashed under his bed just in case a burglar fancies nicking his tv? the genie is so far out of the bottle that I honestly think it is a waste of time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967 View Post
    You've been listening to Trump too much, you are beginning to make as much sense as him!
    well its not dissimilar to the nuclear disarmament arguments. which of us will give up our nukes first? we know that others will build them regardless but shouldn't we get rid of ours because they're evil? its small steps, lets give ours up and hope that Russia follow and others abandon their programs. not going to happen.

    similarly, responsible gun owners that have it locked in a safe and only for personal security reasons are not going to give up their guns when the risk of an intruder remains very real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickleman1967 View Post
    I've no problem with professionals owning guns; police, army etc., and obviously farmers and hunters have a legitimate use for them, but the vast majority of civilians in America want them for "personal security" or criminal activity. That isn't a good reason, civilians owning guns in great numbers leads to massacres as a percentage of any civilian population is f*cking mad. This isn't about "human rights" it is about sensible government, sensible policing of the population.

    In America there are probably enough guns and ammo in civilian hands to put a bullet in the head of half the human population, like I say it is insane. I never said it would be easy to make America sane, but that doesn't mean you don't at least try does it?
    I quite agree. I'm definitely no advocate of gun ownership. I think it is f*cking mental. I'm arguing from a position of hopelessness in the situation. I admire your optimistic stance but I just think the amount of resource required would be better served going into something more productive.

    one ironic thing about all this though from a political viewpoint is that the arguments used for the right to bear arms is the civilian protection against a rogue state and/or tyrannical leader. most of the anti-gun lobby will be democrats and those are the exact same people that claim Trump is a tyrannical leader, some of which have even called for his assassination. it really is a f*cked up country.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokers View Post
    If legislation was the same in the US as it is in the UK then I don't believe this kind of incident would've happened.

    its not legislation, it is culture.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    its not legislation, it is culture.
    Maybe the US wouldn't have such a gun culture if they had the legislation.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokers View Post
    Maybe the US wouldn't have such a gun culture if they had the legislation.
    well yeah but one far predates the other. that legislation would have had to have been built into the constitution because that is where the culture comes from.

    the horse has long since bolted.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    what are the current sentences for possessing a illegal firearm over there? I thought automatic weapons were already illegal?

    but yeah, the whole gun culture is f*cking nuts. but the US is nuts in so many different ways. when you're a country of no culture you tend to find they create a phoney culture and guns is about all they've got.
    Yes, automatic weapons are illegal, but semi-automatic weapons are not. I understand it is possible to get hold of "deactivated" automatic weapons, and with a little know-how re-activate them.
    According to this http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/0...t-Guns-America (it seems a credible website to me) 80% of the mass shootings are carried out by people with legally obtained firearms. The problem is with civilian gun ownership, the legality or otherwise seems to be a side issue, though that is not to belittle the importance of catching the nutters with illegal guns. The encouraging thing about the stats on the link above is that 85% of Americans are in favour of "expanding background checks for gun buyers", maybe there is some sanity there after all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    guns really wouldn't be harder to come by. they are everywhere so unless you're going to go on a 24/7 melt-a-thon you're going to struggle to keep on top of it. I doubt there is any central record of who owns what weapon. so how on earth can you be sure that Old Man Joe down the road doesn't have one stashed under his bed just in case a burglar fancies nicking his tv? the genie is so far out of the bottle that I honestly think it is a waste of time.
    I cant agree, I can think of plenty of situations in history where one group, one culture, has had a stranglehold on a civilisation but guess what? Things eventually change, and what seemed like a hopelessly set in stone situation changes as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post

    well its not dissimilar to the nuclear disarmament arguments. which of us will give up our nukes first? we know that others will build them regardless but shouldn't we get rid of ours because they're evil? its small steps, lets give ours up and hope that Russia follow and others abandon their programs. not going to happen.

    similarly, responsible gun owners that have it locked in a safe and only for personal security reasons are not going to give up their guns when the risk of an intruder remains very real.
    I'm in favour of retaining a minimal nuclear arsenal, lets face it we are a tiny island anyway, it wouldn't take too many missiles to level every major city we have. If that happens, I'll be dead, so it is little comfort that we might have caused mass destruction in Russia/China in retaliation. To be honest, I think I wouldn't lay awake at night worrying about getting nuked if we got rid of all our nuclear weapons, the fact is we are a minor player in terms of conventional forces and nuclear arms, let America and Russia burn billions investing in pointless weapons I say.
    As for a gun locked up providing "personal security", isn't the problem then that if an intruder enters your home you are probably f*cked anyway by the time you get to your gun cabinet? More to do with media generated fear than reality I'd say, guns don't stop crimes.




    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    one ironic thing about all this though from a political viewpoint is that the arguments used for the right to bear arms is the civilian protection against a rogue state and/or tyrannical leader. most of the anti-gun lobby will be democrats and those are the exact same people that claim Trump is a tyrannical leader, some of which have even called for his assassination. it really is a f*cked up country.
    I think the assassination thing is probably sabre rattling, but agreed it is a worryingly neurotic country, I think there may be something in the water...
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    I'm not sure why you're digging Trump out here to be honest. seems an odd thing for him to be getting slagged off about?
    I'm bringing up Trump because he has always tried to show himself as tough on terrorism. He enforced a travel ban in order to safeguard US citizens from Terrorists from the Middle East which claimed 24 American lives in the last decade but will do feck all to tighten up gun laws despite this guy killing more than double that amount in one night.

  9. #129
    26 people shot dead at a church in Texas.

    The killer has been identified as an ex air force
    service man who was discharged with mental health problems.

  10. #130
    This is just craziness. USA government needs to take this very seriously and dig deeper to find why this is happening so often. This gun policy is nuts...
    Raúl González Over 400 career goals, 3 UCL, 6 La Liga, Top scorer in history of UCL and Spain's national team for a decade, captain of one of the best generations of players in Real Madrid history.

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