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Thread: Paris/Europe Under Terrorist Attack

  1. #101

    Re: Paris Under Terrorist Attack

    I lived 28 of 28 years in Germany and I have a swedish citizenship... would you also refer to me as a ALGERIAN guy Hams?
    If you have lived all of your adult life in Germany Simply then i would consider you to be German now not Swedish or Algerian.
    I'm of Spanish origin but have lived most of my life in England so think of myself to be British now but do still try and keep my family's Spanish traditions

    As Steely said its up to the individual how they see themselves but what cant be denied is all these attacks have been carried out by Muslims mental health issues or not.

  2. #102

    Re: Paris Under Terrorist Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    you're doing it again. using terminology and then climbing on your delusional 'Equality Street' high horse when I run with the terminology you started with. language of separatism ffs. you, in the post I responded to, said "my view is that we should be working towards greater integration" and "the vast majority have integrated pretty well"

    to even acknowledge that integration is required you're accepting there is a difference by default ffs so let's not p*ss about trying to suggest that 'the language of separatism' is somehow non-constructive. it's just factual and the way it is. to pretend it isn't is just laughable and serves only to avoid discussion the subject head on.
    OK, sounds like a bit of mutual misunderstanding - when I say "we" I mean "we" as human beings, the worst possible thing to do is withdraw behind tribal lines. Of course there are Muslims who are regressive in that respect, but there are non Muslims equally regressive. That is the point I was making - I was also pointing out that we have come a long way down the path of integration compared to say 40/50 years ago, we (as in the human beings who live on this island) need to focus on continuing that progress.
    I don't deny that groups of people who label themselves as "different" exist, my point is that we need to be getting away from that thinking, the differences are imaginary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    For the record, I'm absolutely not in 'that number'.
    Good, don't get me wrong I never had you down as a racist, but you keep going on about how bad things are in London and how I need to go down and experience it myself. As I've said previously, I live in a major British city myself, slap in the middle of a "multi cultural" district and I don't feel in the slightest bit threatened or concerned as I walk down the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    wow really, you mean muslims are normal people too? who'd have thought it! f*cking hell mate, I'm at a loss as to what point you're trying to make here.

    you then go on to put a link up to a page which only emphasises my point but incredibly manage to find even the faintest of positives as a way of enhancing your own point. on the rise? based on what? what are the figures? 20 years ago to now? how much are interfaith marriages without conversion 'on the rise'?

    I'm not characterising all muslims as intolerant. of course not. however the act of homosexuality is a sin, women are, more often than not, cast aside as inadequate and unequal in every aspect of life, social, legal, career and educational. non-believers are deemed to be inferior and more. this is in the teachings of the faith and in the legal structures of Islamic nations.

    thankfully some are able to use common sense and realise the hideously backward failings of this sort of thinking. Again though, similar to the above applies to a great many aspects of other religions too as you well know and i'll happily call out the others for just the same sorts of disgusting thinking.

    so, to clarify, it isn't the people I'm criticising as intolerant.
    I made those points as I feel it often gets lost in these debates that there are things to be happy about and celebrate, and that most people (all human beings included) actually get on with each other pretty well. You say your problem with the religion of Islam - fine as you know I detest all religion, not least but because it promotes destructive tribalism based on imagined differences. That is something we can agree on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    mate I didn't have any biases when I grew up.
    When I say cultural biases, I don't necessarily mean prejudices/suspicions/stereotypes against other "groups" of people, though that is often part and parcel. Everyone has biases based on the culture they grow up in, not all necessarily harmful of course, but sometimes they are. You would be the first human being in history not to be influenced by the culture you grew up in, so sorry I don't buy that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    my experience isn't of a distant mistrust, or a fear of the unknown. I'm talking about literal experiences first hand from my own eyes and ears. when I give you examples they're not hypothetical, they're factual.
    incidentally, what you describe above about seeing others as evil (or inferior) and your own as jolly nice chaps (or superior) is precisely what I'm talking about above in the teachings of religion.[/quote]

    Mate, come on, I'm the one who is always first to disrespect and oppose religion in whatever form it takes. The opposition has to come in terms of education about history, democratic opposition to religious influence in education, or any other aspect of life in the UK except for those who freely choose to subscribe to a religion. It also has to come through the powerful tool of integration, it is much harder to preserve a stereotype about a 'group' of human beings if you live next door, work with them or maybe even live with someone from that 'group'. It's a mutual thing of course.

    As for 'literal experiences', not sure what you mean but if you are talking about anecdotes of violence/threats/misogyny/criminal behaviour isn't it easy enough to find similar anecdotal evidence about any "group"? Not sure why you should mention this when you say your beef is with the religion of Islam, the fact that religion can produce ugly behaviour in human beings is not in dispute, but the resistance should be aimed at the institution of religion and its influence (whether "moderate" or "extreme"). If I say I know plenty of Muslims and I find them to be polite, law abiding, hard working considerate human beings what does that prove? Taken with your 'literal experiences' I guess it proves that in any population of human beings you are going to find a mix, some pleasant and some unpleasant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    I mean have the powers actually used. where hate speech is peddled, clamp down on it. the police amazingly manage to lock up twitter trolls making inane and worthless threats to celebrities but then fail to punish recruiters and glorifiers of ISIS and the like.

    Removal of state support is for things like State sponsored 'community centres', personal benefits and other publicly funded ventures (including faith schools). basically if you step out of line, the state will withdraw financial support immediately to whatever is facilitating that behaviour or allowing speakers noted for encouraging such speeches.
    Where Islamic "hate speech" towards the 'infidel' is peddled and reported to the police, are you saying they wont act on it? Sorry mate, very difficult to prove that claim, and you've said yourself our security forces are very skilful at identifying and intercepting potential terrorists in the UK. Also, state sponsorship of community centres is missing the point, go after the offenders not the building ffs. People can meet up in the middle of a field and deliver hate speeches, removing state sponsorship for community centres (where elderly people, or people on low income can go to find a little company) makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    Again, you're the one who is saying "we should be working towards greater integration". so the simple question is what should we, and the Islamic community, be doing to achieve this? it's a simple question

    or is your position now that we don't need to be working towards greater integration? you're confusing me.
    Hope I've now answered this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    Of course you have to use labels, that's my point. the people that have been killing are not 'asians' or 'north Africans' or 'religionists' or 'brown people'. they are people identifying as muslims. this is a label they're wearing with pride and is an obvious identifier as it is seemingly the only common denominator in these attacks.

    to deny these labels exist, or attempt to discuss the issue without using them, is cowardice in my opinion.
    This one as well, as I say I don't deny that groups and the accompanying labels exist and that some people glory in being part of that group/label, my point is that we need to move away from such thinking. Our tribal instincts mean that we will always gravitate towards certain groups and labels, which isn't a problem as long as we can see the group/label is just a human construct and not something worth killing for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    but you'd presumably also acknowledge that the label with which he identifies with and uses as his motivation and justification for such an act would be something that is vitally important? or are we to conclude that motivation is completely over ridden and irrelevant where supposed 'mental health' issues are concerned?
    The label is only important if it helps in convicting a criminal, otherwise I don't really give a f*ck, it is just people killing other people. If someone goes out with a knife or an axe and starts hacking strangers to death, I'd say there is a high probability that person is mentally ill, the "sane" ones will opt for something that creates a lot more destruction, and allows them a possible escape route so they can strike again. Why did that man in Japan go on a killing spree with a knife recently? Who f*cking cares, he is off his head so put a bullet in his head or lock him up out of harms way.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  3. #103

    Re: Paris Under Terrorist Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    but how do we go about this? all I am reading is fluffy, utopic nonsense without substance. any person in this country has access to education, healthcare, the jobs market, travel, social opportunities etc. nobody is prevented access to any of these things so integration is a given for anyone who wants it. it doesn't need to be strived for because it is there. if anything you have to work fairly hard not to integrate.
    As I've said before the vast majority of the Muslim population have done exactly that - integrated perfectly well into British life and have no intention of beheading infidels anytime soon. That isn't "fluffy utopic nonsense", it is just a fact - I can honestly say I haven't met a British Muslim who has tried to shoot, stab, or behead me.
    The tiny minority that are radicalised need to be monitored and dealt with like any other terrorist/criminal threat, I'm repeating myself here.

    I disagree about not having to work at continued and improved integration, it has taken decades to change attitudes in the UK from when Pakistani and Indians immigrants first started arriving. Racism was common enough for a Tory MP in 1965 to drop leaflets in peoples houses with the legend "If you want a nigger for a neighbour vote Labour" (he won the seat). It would be wrong to think that "we've arrived" now though, racist attitudes are still healthy enough, as are bigoted attitudes based on religious beliefs of course - they all need to be opposed in equal measure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    however there is a very obvious reason why demographics of people flock to areas in which their 'own kind' are numerous (and I include the British that drag down certain Spanish areas). the clear onus on integration is on the people setting up their new home, whomever and wherever they may be.

    while you may consider the differences to be 'imaginary' the fact is people are willing to die for those differences. you can go on pretending that we're all one and one is all but there have been 11 attacks in 2016 alone across Germany, France and Belgium.
    You misunderstand me, when I say the differences are imaginary I mean they are literally that - the Muslim may think that he or she is different because they think there is a deity pulling all the strings (as do Christians of course), but the fact is we are all evolved primates who sh*t and p*ss out of the same holes, everything else is a human construct. Racists are guilty of the same thing of course, they apply broad generalisations to huge groups of human beings as they try to demonise them, imagined differences mate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    You do need to experience it, you really do. it isn't even about 'feeling threatened', it's about getting an understanding of how your area isn't reflective of the area I am talking about.
    Do I need to experience it though? Can't you just tell me what the problems are? Is it because they don't amount to much when you write them down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying. speakers are regularly invited to speak at faith schools, community centres, universities, mosques etc that are known to peddle hate speech. our security forces are excellent at what they do but their job isn't to stop the recruitment, that is the job of the police who, as we know, are terrified of a certain label being thrust upon them - the evidence for that being overwhelming of course.
    Would this "overwhelming evidence" be a collection of anecdotes or something more substantial? It sounds like one of those claims based on a few high profile press stories that get waved around as "evidence", and then accepted as general fact by a certain sector of the population. It wasn't so long ago that the police were considered to be "institutionally racist", much more likely to stop and search a brown person than a white person. Now they dare not fart within a mile of a brown person for fear of causing offence, while they'll clap the cuffs on a frail old white lady if she dares to raise her stick at Asian youths vandalising her garden. The world according to St. Media
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    you're missing the point mate. how is it logical to continue state funding of buildings in which hate speech occurs on the basis that they may go and do it in a field instead? it shold be noted that these community centres are generally Islamic centres rather than a place shared with a yoga class or an old girl's knitting club. The East London Mosque & London Muslim Centre will give you something to research on the matter.
    The point I'm making is you go after the offenders, closing down the places they speak at will just result in them going elsewhere. As for the East London Mosque - I checked out the website, no sign of hate speak against the infidel though they are running a mosque football tournament...or is that just a flimsy cover to recruit teams of 11 terrorists...with substitutes if needed???

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    how can you 'move away' from it when that precise label is given as the reason and justification for slaying people on a monthly basis?

    what you seem to be saying is that motive is an irrelevance. I'm baffled at such logic. it isn't just 'people killing people', they are being killed for a reason. that reason is essential to trying to understand and prevent it occurring in future. the denial of this reason is what we've been trying for some time now and I just find it strange.

    I don't know why the Japanese fella did what he did. was a reason given by him? what has the investigation found? I'd suggest it is vitally important they are able to find out what that reason was. so say 'who f*cking cares' is laughable.
    You didn't read my post properly, I said the label is irrelevant unless it helps to convict the perpetrator. The bloke in Japan would no doubt spout some insane sh*t if asked why he killed all those people, a bit like an Islamic terrorist would about how he/she killed people for god - I'm not interested tbh, just lock them up out of harms way.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  4. #104

    Re: Paris Under Terrorist Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Hams
    I still say this was a terrorist attack but the police are to scarred to say so as they dont want to frighten the general public.
    Having armed police patrolling the streets may not be the right approach then.

  5. #105

    Re: Paris/Europe Under Terrorist Attack

    Me having a look in this thread....

  6. #106

    Re: Paris Under Terrorist Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    you're going all hyperbolic on me again. my issue isn't that there are swathes of bloodthirsty people ready to decapitate infidels at the drop of a hat. it is the worrying number of people sympathetic to jihadist killings. the number of people dead set against interfaith couplings (11,000 honour crimes known in the past 5 years - how many unreported?). the number of people that empathise with murders who slay where there is a perceived 'insult' towards Islam. the number of people harbouring dangerously homophobic views. etc etc

    From the largest ever survey of British muslims it was found that:
    More than half of Muslims in Britain think homosexuality should be illegal
    47% believe teachers should not be gay
    Only 34% of British Muslims would tell the police if they thought someone they knew was getting involved with supporters of terrorism in Syria
    One in six Muslims would like to live more separately from the rest of the population
    a quarter would like to live under Sharia law

    Trevor Philips himself said "on specific issues: families, sexuality, gender, attitudes towards Jews, and on the questions of violence and terrorism, the centre of gravity of British Muslim opinion is some distance away from the centre of gravity of everybody else’s opinion.”

    these aren't crazed terrorists, they are normal people having their opinion shaped by imams, clerics and indoctrination. that is concerning to me. have a look at people squirm when they ask about the penalty for apostasy or the rightful and just punishment for homosexuality or heresy where Sharia conditions are met. ordinary men and women are happy to justify capital punishment, floggings and other brutal punishments. that is dangerous.
    Not going hyperbolic mate, just reminding everyone that things aren't really as bad as we are led to believe. We shouldn't be surprised that people from a religious community have homophobic and misogynistic views, it wasn't long ago that Britain was a Christian country and homosexuality was illegal. It is pretty common for Evangelical Christians in America to view theocracy as a desirable thing, and you cannot get elected into a position of significant influence over there if you admit to being an atheist, it is f*cking ridiculous.
    As for the sympathy for Islamic fundamentalist fighters, sure "ordinary people" have sympathy, I've heard them say they consider them to be better Muslims than they are, I'm not overly concerned that that means they are on the verge of being radicalised themselves though. Has it ever occurred to you that non Muslims show little or no outrage at the civilian casualties of "Allied" attacks in the Middle East? There was an anti war campaign going for the second war with Iraq, but lets face it the majority of people were happy enough to go with it even though it wasn't sanctioned by the UN.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    that response, alone, highlights that yes, you do need to. it essentially says that whatever I say will be brushed aside - hence i'll not bother going over it again.
    I can't go down and live in East London for a couple of months mate, I'm not an investigative journalist for goodness sake. I'm not even sure what I'm supposed to expect, you speak as though London is on another planet rather than being just another British city, if you can come up with something compelling then fair enough. If it is stuff like that fella from the EDL was going on about in the YouTube clip you once posted (at least I think it was you), then you are right I wont take it seriously. A load of anecdotal evidence of that type doesn't constitute compelling evidence as far as I'm concerned, it skews reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    No, it would be a collection of literally thousands of young girls systematically abused, raped, and pimped by gangs across multiple areas of the country and several years without countless complaints taken seriously or investigated sufficiently. are these young girls lives substantial enough for you ffs?
    I think if there is one thing we've learnt in recent years it is that child abuse is sadly universal, and that it goes on in every nation, every community. You are not suggesting it is a particularly Islamic issue are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    oh well if you checked out the official website then everything must be rosy. for f*ck sake mate, were you expecting them to list hate preachers appearances in order of extremity or something like that?

    the fact you've not even bothered to have even the slightest look at what I'm telling you highlights that I am wasting my time. I tell you something, you dismiss it. I urge you to look it up for yourself and you do nothing.
    Hold on now, I did a Google search for that mosque and that is what came up, there weren't links to how it is implicated with radicalising young Muslims, but isn't it loading the question somewhat if I enter "East London Mosque Islamic Terrorism"? A bit like entering "Catholic Priests Paedophiles", it will throw up plenty of links but it wont necessarily give me a balanced view of Catholics or the behaviour of most Catholic priests. To please you though, however, I'll have another look and dig out the stories, fair enough?
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  7. #107

    Re: Paris/Europe Under Terrorist Attack

    4 dead after bomb attacks in Thailand's holiday resorts but local authorities are claiming that its not terrorist related!
    What the feck is it then?!

  8. #108

    Re: Paris Under Terrorist Attack

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    you're not "overly concerned" about a mentality in which 'soldiers of allah' are near-deified by ordinary men and women? you're not "overly concerned" that children are growing up in an environment where they are taught obedience to God is the purpose of man and, alongside that, jihadists are fawned over?

    You're not "overly concerned" that while pasty faced liberals fall over themselves to declare these attackers as 'non-muslim', actual muslims are suggesting attackers are 'better muslims' than they are?
    Putting words in my mouth mate, as you know I'm against religion and religious influence in whatever form it takes, "moderate" or "extreme", it is a poison I oppose vocally and financially through my subs to the British Humanist Association. The BHA opposes faith schools, that is where the fight needs to be as far as I'm concerned, indoctrination of children has been going on for centuries, it is how religion manages to stay so widespread and influential in the 21st century. The more people who vocally oppose the religious indoctrination of kids, and campaign for the withdrawal of state funding for faith schools the more chance of diminishing the influence of the god botherers. There is no "quick fix" for this though, the "organic growth" of liberal (nothing wrong with a bit of pasty faced liberalism mate ) and secular thinking in our country has won a lot of ground in the battle against religion and religious thinking. More of the same medicine please.

    Having said that, and I think this is where you and I differ, I am confident that the vast majority of Muslims in the UK are not a threat to the lives of non Muslims. Yes there is a problem with a small minority of radicalised Islamists of course there is, they need to be monitored and dealt with by the security services, but the overall situation needs to be kept in perspective.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    Again, I'm not going to sit here spelling things out to you. you've already previously dismissed anecdotal summaries of people's actual experiences in such areas (note I've been outlining specific areas, not just 'London'). and so the only logical step would be to gather your own experience where you can report back advising of the warm welcome you received, how the educational service was ever so beneficial for your child(ren), how you became a pillar of the local community, how you 'integrated' successfully into local culture and everything else. everyone else's experience is b*llocks to you, so experience it yourself.

    but of course you wont. but it wont stop you dismissing those who actually do experience it. you must surely acknowledge there is a considerable arrogance in that?
    No, you misunderstand me about anecdotal evidence, it is "inadmissible" in discussions like this because it is so easy to pick and choose your stories to present a false picture. I can't make any conclusions about a large community of people based on the negative experience of a number of people, because those stories may have been fabricated/exaggerated, and even if they are all accurate so what? If I go out and get a thousand stories of positive encounters people have had with Muslims in East London does that prove that those Muslims are actually jolly nice chaps? No, that is why statistics (as long as they have been obtained from a reputable source so the sample size and cross section is appropriate) carry weight but anecdotal evidence doesn't.
    Another objection to anecdotal evidence is that it is often used by those with a vested interest to purposely build a false picture, manipulating the gullible by whipping up emotions. It is a technique used by politicians, preachers and the press so I treat it with the appropriate level of circumspection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill

    you're wilfully side stepping the point of why I raised it. you asked me for evidence of police not doing their job properly on matters involving Islamic criminals and so I pointed out the very real and very dangerous situation in which police and councils colluded to cover up, ignore and dismiss claims from the victims of sexual abuse, their families and concerned council/social workers. this collusion occurred across multiple areas of the country and across a great number of years and was roundly exposed by the Home Select Committee and independent inquiries. even when it was being reported on these gangs were described as 'Asian gangs' rather than what they were, something which rightly drew complaints from Sikhs and Hindus.

    people involved have actively admitted their reasons for not raising these issues. 1,400 girls in Rotherham alone.
    I wasn't side stepping the point, I wanted to point out that you cannot make generalisations about the Muslim community based on that child abuse scandal, any more than you can about Catholics based on the global cover up of paedophilia and child abuse. Time and again we hear of children being systematically abused in care homes, churches and so on, where the authorities fail to take appropriate action despite reports and obvious warning signs, it isn't merely an "Islamic" issue. OK, there was clearly misguided "institutionalised political correctness" in the Rotherham case, but don't forget that 'Pakistani Muslims' have been convicted for their crimes in that affair and resignations have followed. Like so many of these cases, it has exposed the people involved in a cover up and hopefully lessons will be learnt as a result. Are we just to dismiss the fact that Muslim men were convicted for this, albeit lamentably long after they should have been, or just assume that this was a rare "exception to the rule" and this kind of thing is still going on unchecked? That would be a assumption I'm not willing to accept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    that's why I encouraged you to do your own research, rather than have me lead you to anything. you could start by watching the Dispatches programme "Britain's Islamic Republic" from six years ago. but I'd urge you to dig as deep as you can elsewhere.
    I'm not 'in denial' that there are Muslims in the UK with wrong headed and dangerous ideas, nor am I denying that there is a criminal element in the community. There is really not much between us in our attitudes towards Islam mate, I detest all religion, but I cannot abide the emotional fear mongering that we get bombarded with by the media or those with a racist agenda. I just like to 'keep it real'.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  9. #109

    Re: Paris/Europe Under Terrorist Attack

    Interesting article that Steely, we were having a good debate here until all the posts disappeared, I never read your response to my last post (you probably conceded everything to the brilliant points I made right?) but I'm pleased they've nailed that slippery f*cker Choudary. I would hope they'll have his cell bugged as it sounds as though he is the sort who'll try and orchestrate terrorist activity from prison.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  10. #110

    Re: Paris/Europe Under Terrorist Attack

    I agree with you about something for a change Pickles!

    It was a joke that we let that hate preacher Anjem Choudary roam the streets for over a decade brainwashing young British Muslim men to commit acts of terror.

    Its just a shame we can't deport him as i believe he was born in this country unlike those other so called clerics Abu Hamza and Omar Bakri

    I hear that they will soon have new technology in prisons so they can block phone signals so hopefully we wont hear from this gay ISIS fan boy for some time.

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