The Big EU Referendum/Politics Thread

[Seamus]

Thought I would start a new thread here seeing as the date for the referendum has been set (and there are no comments from Nick here!'

Which way will you be voting on June 23rd?. Should the UK leave the EU reclaim our borders and retain all law making powers here or do you believe that we should stick together with our European partners to tackle problems together and take advantage of the favourable trade deals.

The details of the PMs deal after his whirlwind tour of Europe can be read here:-

The latest polling from UK YouGov shows the Leave campaign leading by 45% to 38% with 17% undecided.

I myself am still undecided at the moment. My natural instinct is to vote Remain but the more I am hearing about it the more I am swaying towards Leave. One of the first things you always hear from the Pro EU campaigners is that being in the EU is good for business but then again so is the Free Trade Agreement and TTIP but they are catastrophic for Democracy and Freedom - and we didn't even get a say on them!.

One of the big problems for the Leave campaign is who will front it. So far the big names are Farage, BoJo, IDS and George Galloway!. A Good cast list for a sitcom but not very good for getting the population to vote on a referendum that will have huge implications for future generations. My guessing is that Gove would be given a lead role here as he is positioning himself to take over from David Cameron should the UK vote to Leave as his position will be called into question, I think that is also the reason why BoJo has put himself at odds with the PM.

Well it will be a long few months and we will no doubt have to put up with Cameron and Farage shouting their mouths off in every news bulletin between now and polling day but at least it will be entertaining watching the Tories ripping themselves apart!.

[Hams]

I have locked Nick's old thread about leaving the EU so we can now use this one only to discuss the big referendum.

The latest news is that Boris Johnson has joined the Brexit campaign and other more senior Tories like Theresa May should follow.

I made up my mind to vote to leave the European Union a long time ago and think the UK can manage and prosper on its own.

This is a once in a life time opportunity to stick 2 fingers up to Brussels who have the nerve to tell this Island nation what to do.

I'm bit concerned that likes of Nigel farage and George Galloway could spoil things for the leave vote and hope they keep quiet.

[Seamus]

that said, as much as i disagree with 99% of Galloway's thoughts, opinions and actions, i'd be keen to hear his views on this subject.

Strangely enough, he was very supportive of the EU when arguing against Scottish Independence 18 months ago!.

[Pickleman1967]

Yeah, I can remember the promises made about the EU/EEC in the early days, that we would become part of an economic super power and reap all the benefits something like that brings. I'm not so sure it has turned out like that, while I appreciate that the EU has generated industry and regeneration in "deprived" areas of Europe, I suspect that it hasn't brought genuine lasting prosperity to those areas. They get grants for rebuilding or improving tourism, or maybe help to attract some industry, but the traditional wealthy industrial powerhouses of Europe remain the main players, and there is no indication that is about to change. When you add the crisis with the Euro (the 'PIG' countries collapse) to the mix you begin to wonder whether it has really made much difference after all. I tend to think there may be some justification in the suspicion that it is just another layer of bureaucracy, that does some good but probably not anything that couldn't be achieved with more informal trade agreements between European countries. Unlike me, (especially if it means aligning myself with twits like Farage and Galloway) but I think we'll be fine if we leave it, it certainly won't mean a collapse of our economy overnight. Like everyone else, I'd like to hear the arguments for and against from the opposing sides, but to be honest whenever I've heard politicians talk about the pros and cons of the EU I feel none the wiser at the end of it! I say lets go for the Brexit!

[Pokers]

Interesting to see the Cameron vs Johnson situation, I think Johnson is angling for Tory leadership here, Cameron has already said he won’t stand for another election, so if Johnson can lead the Brexit campaign and get a result, will look very good for him.

An ‘in’ call from Johnson would have ended his political ambitions.

Cameron is handling it very badly. His argument for staying in the EU isnt coherent and boils down to “we dont know what will happen”.

Absolutely no doubt that the rushed referendum is a clear attempt to rush things which will lead the fence sitters to go with the status quo.

[specnur]

Am i correct in believing that us being out of the EU would scupper my plans to live in Berlin ? That would suck ass if true!
Or how about the jobs that us Brits just won't do that immigrants jump at?
I can see pretty decent arguments for both sides and preservation of British culture is something i totally support in most areas of the argument.
All i know is that Britain is palace where EVERYONE in EUROPE wants to live or work ,it's influence worldwide is unquestionable so something has to be done to regulate the influx because people will not regulate themselves and say "hmm looks like there are too many foreign born people here ,let me try Poland instead."

[Half Way House]

For those of you undecided on how to vote in this referendum just look at the people who are suggesting we leave the EU. Can they be trusted? Are they looking after all our interests or just the interests of a small minority? Do they tell the truth? Can they be relied upon to provide facts instead of speculation? Do they spread scare stories?
Any cause that included Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Michael Grove & George Galloway on the same platform should be enough to convince you of the merits of remaining within the European Community.

[Hams]

Also Jeremy Corbyn and his left wing communists wish to remain in the EU plus the Lib Dems and SNP and most Unions.
why should we accept that what all they is right?

I agree that the best way to decide how to vote is what you think about it only and to weigh up the pros and cons about it.

[Pickleman1967]

Being a conservative sort of bloke (with a small 'c' I'm pleased to say!) my natural inclination is to side with the mainstream politicians, Cameron, Corbyn (left wing Communists Hams? I don't think I've heard of right wing Communists! ) et. al., but I find myself asking questions like:

Has the EU made Europe an economic super power? No, America, China and Japan are the main players, and emerging economies like India, Brazil, and Russia have generated vast wealth based on cheap labour. Germany is as ever an economic power to be reckoned with, Britain and France do okay, but Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain and Italy have all been suffering lately, countries like Greece is up to its eyebrows in debt.

Was it unrealistic to imagine that Europe could become one homogenous wealthy 'zone' where employment opportunities and personal wealth levels are roughly equivalent wherever you live? Well yes, countries with long traditions of wealth generating industry are always going to do better than those without that history and associated skilled workforce. You can't just grow something like that overnight, it involves a lot of different factors like standards of education, skill levels and (personally I think this may be more important than anything else) cultural attitudes. Germany does so well because it has a long tradition of a hard working dedicated workforce, very proud, highly skilled, highly educated and driven - you cant just conjure the same thing in every European state as though it is something you can pick up on a five day course.

Has the EU made us more recession proof? Quite clearly not, we are still subject to peaks and troughs in terms of our national debt, inflation, interest rates, employment rates, personal wealth etc. I suppose you could answer if it wasn't for the EU our recessions would have been worse, but it is probably impossible to present any real evidence for hypothetical ideas like that. I strongly suspect if we hadn't joined up all those years ago life in the UK wouldn't really be much different from what it is today. I make that assessment based on the fact that it would still be the same UK, with the same skilled, experienced and educated work force, with the same entrepreneurs, industrialists and politicians looking to do business with the rest of the world.

I suppose you could point to a more equitable distribution of wealth among the EU members ("deprived" areas getting big grants from the EU to generate some industry) but try telling that to the people of Greece who have seen their wages slashed and unemployment rise. I recall the massive Nissan plant in Sunderland got hefty funding from the EU, to encourage the company to set up shop in the North East, but I suspect even if we weren't in the EU Nissan would naturally gravitate to a country like the UK anyway, because we have a high skill, and a no longer heavily unionised work force. Our national government could have offered a couple of "sweeteners" like low purchase price for the land, low business rates etc., so was that investment contingent on us being in the EU? I suspect not.

So I find myself scratching around for the benefits of belonging to EU, I wrote the above based on my own recollections and understanding over the years, feel free to pick it apart with stats and offer me some reasons to vote to stay in the Union.

[mrtz]

For someone completely unfamiliar with the situation, could someone give me a list or point me to a list with a series of bullets of pros and cons of staying?