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Thread: The Big EU Referendum/Politics Thread

  1. #11

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Also Jeremy Corbyn and his left wing communists wish to remain in the EU plus the Lib Dems and SNP and most Unions.
    why should we accept that what all they is right?

    I agree that the best way to decide how to vote is what you think about it only and to weigh up the pros and cons about it.

  2. #12

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Being a conservative sort of bloke (with a small 'c' I'm pleased to say!) my natural inclination is to side with the mainstream politicians, Cameron, Corbyn (left wing Communists Hams? I don't think I've heard of right wing Communists! ) et. al., but I find myself asking questions like:

    Has the EU made Europe an economic super power? No, America, China and Japan are the main players, and emerging economies like India, Brazil, and Russia have generated vast wealth based on cheap labour. Germany is as ever an economic power to be reckoned with, Britain and France do okay, but Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain and Italy have all been suffering lately, countries like Greece is up to its eyebrows in debt.

    Was it unrealistic to imagine that Europe could become one homogenous wealthy 'zone' where employment opportunities and personal wealth levels are roughly equivalent wherever you live? Well yes, countries with long traditions of wealth generating industry are always going to do better than those without that history and associated skilled workforce. You can't just grow something like that overnight, it involves a lot of different factors like standards of education, skill levels and (personally I think this may be more important than anything else) cultural attitudes. Germany does so well because it has a long tradition of a hard working dedicated workforce, very proud, highly skilled, highly educated and driven - you cant just conjure the same thing in every European state as though it is something you can pick up on a five day course.

    Has the EU made us more recession proof? Quite clearly not, we are still subject to peaks and troughs in terms of our national debt, inflation, interest rates, employment rates, personal wealth etc. I suppose you could answer if it wasn't for the EU our recessions would have been worse, but it is probably impossible to present any real evidence for hypothetical ideas like that. I strongly suspect if we hadn't joined up all those years ago life in the UK wouldn't really be much different from what it is today. I make that assessment based on the fact that it would still be the same UK, with the same skilled, experienced and educated work force, with the same entrepreneurs, industrialists and politicians looking to do business with the rest of the world.

    I suppose you could point to a more equitable distribution of wealth among the EU members ("deprived" areas getting big grants from the EU to generate some industry) but try telling that to the people of Greece who have seen their wages slashed and unemployment rise. I recall the massive Nissan plant in Sunderland got hefty funding from the EU, to encourage the company to set up shop in the North East, but I suspect even if we weren't in the EU Nissan would naturally gravitate to a country like the UK anyway, because we have a high skill, and a no longer heavily unionised work force. Our national government could have offered a couple of "sweeteners" like low purchase price for the land, low business rates etc., so was that investment contingent on us being in the EU? I suspect not.

    So I find myself scratching around for the benefits of belonging to EU, I wrote the above based on my own recollections and understanding over the years, feel free to pick it apart with stats and offer me some reasons to vote to stay in the Union.
    He's magic you kno-oow, Mauricio Poch-ett-ino!

  3. #13

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    For someone completely unfamiliar with the situation, could someone give me a list or point me to a list with a series of bullets of pros and cons of staying?

  4. #14

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Hill
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerkings
    Cameron is handling it very badly. His argument for staying in the EU isnt coherent and boils down to “we don't know what will happen”.
    interestingly that was the entire basis of the SNPs Scottish Independence campaign as well.
    It was more like 'We know what will happen, but we cannot prove it'

  5. #15

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hams
    Also Jeremy Corbyn and his left wing communists wish to remain in the EU plus the Lib Dems and SNP and most Unions.
    why should we accept that what all they is right?.
    Those 'Commies' you refer to are less enthusiastic about the EU as you might think. Just after he became Labour leader Corbyn suggested that he might campaign for leaving the EU. It is those on the right of the Labour Party that are passionate about staying in the EU, the only reason that Corbyn has gone along with this is that he did not want another massive rebellion in his party. It is much better for him to go with the vast majority and display a united Labour Party against a Tory Party at each others throats.

  6. #16

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mrtz
    For someone completely unfamiliar with the situation, could someone give me a list or point me to a list with a series of bullets of pros and cons of staying?
    Hola amigo
    If we leave the EU would you mind if us guys became part of the USA?!

    I found this link for you which gives some good pro's and Cons about remaining in Europe or not.


  7. #17

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by specnur
    Am i correct in believing that us being out of the EU would scupper my plans to live in Berlin ?
    i think, at worst, you'd simply need to get a visa.

    Quote Originally Posted by specnur
    Or how about the jobs that us Brits just won't do that immigrants jump at?
    we have enough unskilled British workers. that they're too lazy to do generally undesirable jobs is not really a solid justification for importing more unskilled labour.

  8. #18

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mrtz
    For someone completely unfamiliar with the situation, could someone give me a list or point me to a list with a series of bullets of pros and cons of staying?
    this is just it, there isn't really such a list that wont be riddled with inaccuracies, bias and misrepresentation of figures.

    all i want to know is how will staying in or getting out affect MY life and that of my immediate family.

    nobody has come up with anything that comes close to answering that which, suggests to me, we might as well leave as otherwise the benefits to me would be obvious.

  9. #19

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    Just watched Tony Blair on American TV earlier on why he supports to stay. Mainly, his justification is in order to compete with China, India, and the US (which he, strangely emphasizes the population), he says that it would be a mistake to walk away from the biggest market at your doorstep.

    I don't think I'm connecting what he means... Wouldn't separating yourselves from the EU allow for more freedom to conduct your own deals with international powers without having to deal with the economic troubles of the likes of Greece? The advantage the US and China have, I think, is that we get to operate pretty autonomously and give ourselves room to grow. It's actually trade deals like the TPP and NAFTA that are costing citizens here jobs, particularly in manufacturing.

  10. #20

    Re: The Big EU Referendum Thread

    If this song doesn't make everyone vote to leave then i don't know what will!

    https://youtu.be/lGTGt392Gas

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