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Thread: 2017 General Election

  1. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    I don't follow. Callaghan lost seats in 79. Kinnock was expected to win in 92 but lost. No-one expected Corbyn to do so well..
    So he's a winner by virtue of low expectations? that's how far Labour have sunk? we're basically a two party nation in which the second party consider losing to be a victory?

    what a damning verdict of our current political landscape.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    I don't like the idea of free movement of people but if its the only way we remain part of the single market then so be it. Immigration was not my main reason for voting to leave, but I understand why people like yourself would be swayed by it. Maybe if i lived in London, Manchester, Glasgow etc I would feel different.
    fair enough, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion - I just wanted to clarify where you were coming from.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    We will never know how strategic investment may have affected the economy. What is clear is that the Tories economic policy hasn't worked.
    That isn't an answer to my question.

    I asked how increased public spending would halt the UK debt increasing? it seems at odds to me that you'd have concern about the UK debt but support a man whose policy was to basically increase the public debt.

    its perfectly fine to say the Tories economic policy hasn't worked. but I am unclear as to how Labour's economic policy would have worked. it sounded to me like the UK debt would spiral even more out of control while reliance on the state would increase significantly among the populace. is that sound economics?

  2. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    So he's a winner by virtue of low expectations? that's how far Labour have sunk? we're basically a two party nation in which the second party consider losing to be a victory?

    what a damning verdict of our current political landscape.
    Perhaps it is. Corbyn was welcomed into the Commons with applause last week and a recent Survation poll put Labour ahead of the Tories for the first time in nearly 10 years!. The momentum is with Corbyn and I don't see how Prime Minister Boris Johnson will stop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    That isn't an answer to my question.

    I asked how increased public spending would halt the UK debt increasing? it seems at odds to me that you'd have concern about the UK debt but support a man whose policy was to basically increase the public debt.

    its perfectly fine to say the Tories economic policy hasn't worked. but I am unclear as to how Labour's economic policy would have worked. it sounded to me like the UK debt would spiral even more out of control while reliance on the state would increase significantly among the populace. is that sound economics?
    Im no Economics expert and I cant really comment on Corbyns spending plans I haven't seen it all. my point was that the Tories have failed on the economy by trebling the National debt despite promising and sometimes even claiming that they are cutting the defecit and paying back the debt!. The UK lost its AAA+ borrowing rating on the Tories watch. There is a school of thought that says investing in the economy is the best way to avoid the calamatous effects of a recession but as i say we will never know as the Tories got into power and started the slash and burn policy that has left the economy so fragile that the effects of another recession doesn't even bear thinking about.

  3. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    Perhaps it is. Corbyn was welcomed into the Commons with applause last week and a recent Survation poll put Labour ahead of the Tories for the first time in nearly 10 years!. The momentum is with Corbyn and I don't see how Prime Minister Boris Johnson will stop it.
    as I say, Corbyn's supposed "momentum" is largely in Labour heartlands with a couple of exceptions. it was helped massively by May's disaster of a campaign but, as I've said before, I think Labour will win the next GE with a different leader. only an incredibly incompetent campaign on their behalf will stop them. his policies were too far the other way for people to hop on board. he'll never get my vote.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    Im no Economics expert and I cant really comment on Corbyns spending plans I haven't seen it all. my point was that the Tories have failed on the economy by trebling the National debt despite promising and sometimes even claiming that they are cutting the defecit and paying back the debt!. The UK lost its AAA+ borrowing rating on the Tories watch. There is a school of thought that says investing in the economy is the best way to avoid the calamatous effects of a recession but as i say we will never know as the Tories got into power and started the slash and burn policy that has left the economy so fragile that the effects of another recession doesn't even bear thinking about.
    this is why campaigning as the opposition will always be a far easier task than campaigning as the government. you can pick holes in things with ease, even when the policies were those of your predecessor, as was the case for May. however, the lack of scrutiny on Corbyn's economic policy was ridiculous and May is largely to blame on that.

    if a voter's primary concern is the economy and national debt then I'd genuinely love to hear their reasoned thoughts for how Corbyn would turn this around because I just can't see it.

    I asked Poker to set out his stall for why somebody should vote for Corbyn. his response is there for you to see. it was effectively a ball of tumbleweed. Corbyn's best asset seems to be that he isn't a Tory. as somebody who rejects party politics this isn't convincing enough an argument for me.

  4. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post

    I asked Poker to set out his stall for why somebody should vote for Corbyn. his response is there for you to see. it was effectively a ball of tumbleweed. Corbyn's best asset seems to be that he isn't a Tory. as somebody who rejects party politics this isn't convincing enough an argument for me.
    Erm. Not sure what you mean by that because I'm pretty sure I've highlighted why we should vote for Labour over the alternative?

    If not, here's why...

    http://www.labour.org.uk/index.php/10-pledges

    End insecurity for private renters by introducing rent controls.

    End exploitative zero hours contracts. Like your Queen loves to use on her staff.

    Action against undercutting of pay and conditions through the exploitation of migrant labour.

    We will build a progressive tax system so that wealth and the highest earners are fairly taxed, and shrink the gap between the highest and lowest paid.

    Act to create a more equal society, boost the incomes of the poorest.

    Sounds a right nightmare doesn't he?
    Arsene Wenger the "specialist in failure".

  5. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    as I say, Corbyn's supposed "momentum" is largely in Labour heartlands with a couple of exceptions. it was helped massively by May's disaster of a campaign but, as I've said before, I think Labour will win the next GE with a different leader. only an incredibly incompetent campaign on their behalf will stop them. his policies were too far the other way for people to hop on board. he'll never get my vote.
    People have been hopping on board though!. He got over 3.5 Million more votes than Ed Millibands more centralist policies. Who do you think would win the next GE for Labour then?.

  6. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    People have been hopping on board though!. He got over 3.5 Million more votes than Ed Millibands more centralist policies. Who do you think would win the next GE for Labour then?.
    as I've said, they are votes in Labour strongholds. he needs seats, not an increased majority in Islington. he got four more seats than Gordon Brown. that shouldn't be good enough for anyone who is a Labour supporter.

    I have no idea who would be the person to win it for them, I don't know enough about the Labour ranks but I am near certain it wont be one of Corbyn's inner circle who would triumph. I am also certain that Corbyn would win another Labour leadership election if he were to fight for his position though which effectively makes the whole thing redundant.

  7. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Pokerkings View Post
    lets analyse these pledges one by one.

    We will create a million good quality jobs across our regions and nations, and guarantee a decent job for all. By investing £500 billion in infrastructure and industry, backed up by a publicly-owned National Investment Bank and regional banks, we will build a high skilled, high tech, low carbon economy to ensure that no one and no community is left behind.
    A million good quality jobs? so not just any old job, good quality jobs. is he going to force companies to employ more staff? or is he more likely going to increase dependency on the state by swelling the public sector with the inevitable burden that brings? but wait, that's not all.

    He will guarantee a "decent job FOR ALL"? ffs mate, how the f*ck can he possibly do that? guarantee that every work age person in the country gets a decent job? lunacy. how can anyone look at that with an even vaguely sensible brain and consider that with any credibility?

    what are all these jobs? the only way he can guarantee such an absurd thing would be to put them all on the public sector payroll. the current unemployment rate is just under 5%. how many jobs is that he is guaranteeing?

    We will build over a million new homes in five years, with at least half a million council homes, through our public investment strategy.

    We will end insecurity for private renters by introducing rent controls, secure tenancies and a charter of private tenants’ rights, and increase access to affordable home ownership.
    sounds almost exactly like one of Khan's pledges when he became Mayor of London, which was one of a number that were quickly hidden away as they were never going to happen.

    where will the homes be built? how much will it cost?

    it is certainly a good thing to get a grip on the issue of landlords and their behaviour. though I'd go further and increase taxation on multiple home ownership to make it more difficult for people to hoard starter homes to swell the rental market and decrease those available to buy.

    We will give people stronger employment rights from day one in a job, end exploitative zero hours contracts, and create new sectoral collective bargaining rights.

    We will strengthen working people’s representation at work and the ability of trade unions to organise, so that working people have a real voice at work.

    And we will put the defence of social and employment rights, as well as action against undercutting of pay and conditions through the exploitation of migrant labour, at the centre of the Brexit negotiations agenda for a new relationship with Europe
    All good. he has my support on all of that - this is one of the things he should have been doing during the EU referendum though.

    We will end health service privatisation and bring services into a secure, publicly-provided NHS.

    We will integrate the NHS and social care for older and disabled people, funding dignity across the board, and ensure parity for mental health services.
    not entirely sure what he means here. the NHS will always need to deal with the private sector and pharmaceutical companies. it can never be wholly in-house.

    I'd need to understand more about that to decide its credibility. parity for mental health services? parity with what? again, it isn't clear.

    We will build a new National Education Service, open to all throughout their lives. We will ensure there is universal childcare to give all children a good start in life, allowing greater sharing of caring responsibilities and removing barriers to women participating in the labour market.

    We will bring about the progressive restoration of free education for all; and guarantee quality apprenticeships and adult skills training.
    universal childcare? that is something I'd benefit from but how on earth would it be managed? literally everyone gets free childcare for however long they need until school age? how much is this expected to cost per year?

    free education for all? I don't want my taxes paying for some mug to waste four years of their lives getting p*ssed while 'studying' philosophy or social studies. its a stupid policy and, again, how much would it cost? water it down a bit and its half sensible - heavily subsidise medicine/nursing/teaching degrees and other critical degrees.

    more guarantees thrown in for good measure. a guarantee of 'quality' apprenticeships and adult skills training. what does that even mean?

    We will act to protect the future of our planet, with social justice at the heart of our environmental policies, and take action to fulfil the Paris climate agreement.

    We will ensure a fair transition to a low-carbon economy, and drive the expansion of the green industries and jobs of the future, using our National Investment Bank to invest in public and community-owned renewable energy.

    We will deliver clean energy and curb energy bill rises for households – energy for the 60 million, not the Big Six energy companies. We will defend and extend EU environmental protections.
    what does 'social justice at the heart of our environmental policies' mean? that immediately gets me a little suspicious.

    the rest of the environmental stuff bores me to be honest, if that was my primary concern I would vote Green.

    We will rebuild public services and expand democratic participation, put the public back into our economy, give people a real say in their local communities with increased local and regional democracy.

    We will act to ‘insource’ our public and local council services, increase access to leisure, arts and sports across the country, and expand our publicly controlled bus network.

    We will bring our railways into public ownership and extend democratic social control over our energy.
    I don't really understand what any of the first two sentences even mean. what exactly is he going to do?

    I'm not convinced that bringing the railways into public ownership is particularly helpful. the cost is astronomical.

    We will build a progressive tax system so that wealth and the highest earners are fairly taxed, and shrink the gap between the highest and lowest paid.

    We will act to create a more equal society, boost the incomes of the poorest and close the gender pay gap.
    who decides what is fair? Corbyn? a bloke living in London on £100,000 a year and a bloke living in Scotland on £100,000 a year will be able to lead hugely different lives due to their respective costs of living being vastly different. yet both will be taxed identically. is that fair?

    similarly, if I earnt £100,000 a year and my missus didn't work n order to raise our kids but you and your missus both earnt £40k a year each then you would be better off than I was because of the heavy taxation. is that fair?

    how do you boost the incomes of the poorest? the gender pay gap has been shown to be a myth time and time again.

    We will ensure that the human rights of all citizens are respected and all are protected from discrimination and prejudice.

    We will take action to tackle violence against women and girls, racism and discrimination on the basis of faith, and secure real equality for LGBT and disabled people.

    We will defend the Human Rights Act and guarantee full rights for EU citizens living and working in Britain – and not allow them to be used as pawns in Brexit negotiations
    except when the perpetrators adhere to the religion of peace I suppose? I can't take the above seriously when he calls Hamas and Hezbollah his friends. you couldn't wish to find a better example of a group who endulge in violence against women and girls, racism and discrimination on the basis of faith and absolute oppression and worse for LGBT people. I've not checked their record against the disabled so perhaps they are progressives on that score.

    We will put conflict resolution and human rights at the heart of foreign policy, commit to working through the United Nations, end support for aggressive wars of intervention and back effective action to alleviate the refugee crisis.

    We will build human rights and social justice into trade policy, honour our international treaty obligations on nuclear disarmament and encourage others to do the same.
    potentially positive but with him you can never be sure. what is 'effective action to alleviate the refugee crisis'? what does it mean to "build human rights and social justice into trade policy"?

    I think we can guess but his deliberate ambiguity means he has plenty of wiggle room.

  8. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
    Austerity and Osbornomics hasn't worked - the UK debt has trebled since 2010!.
    Cameron and Osbourne were obsessed with growth and balancing the books.

    Growth started well, then slowed a bit, but they did and are still attempting to lower the outgoings to incomings.

    Like you say, sadly, the debt has increased; I'm well aware of that.

    I know it's not popular to cut this and then cut that, but we need to make sure that, despite every man and his dog wanting money here and there for something, that we don't keep spending just because someone asks for it, or needs it.

    The government really need to keep saying 'no' to requests: Even if this makes them the nasty party.

    I guarantee that a Labour government would...borrow more.

  9. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Tipster View Post
    I know it's not popular to cut this and then cut that, but we need to make sure that, despite every man and his dog wanting money here and there for something, that we don't keep spending just because someone asks for it, or needs it.

    The government really need to keep saying 'no' to requests: Even if this makes them the nasty party.
    If only it were that simple...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-8724779.html

  10. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely View Post
    as I've said, they are votes in Labour strongholds. he needs seats, not an increased majority in Islington. he got four more seats than Gordon Brown. that shouldn't be good enough for anyone who is a Labour supporter.

    I have no idea who would be the person to win it for them, I don't know enough about the Labour ranks but I am near certain it wont be one of Corbyn's inner circle who would triumph. I am also certain that Corbyn would win another Labour leadership election if he were to fight for his position though which effectively makes the whole thing redundant.

    So even though Corbyns popularity is rising and he gained more votes and seats than his moderate predecessor and that his policies are proving more and more popular your still sure that replacing him with somebody else is a sure fire route to success even though you don't know who or what they stand for?!.

    The Tories have finally done deal with the DUP to allow them to cling to power. It has taken 3 and a half weeks - which is 3 and a half times longer than the DUP beleive is took God to create the Earth! - no wonder Theresa May thinks she's a 'bloody difficult woman to deal with'!

    In other news my local MP Ian Blackford has been named the new SNP leader in Westminster.

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